RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

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RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/20/2021 10:05:47 PM

The Land

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
and the mine and ship will reduce the port by 1 point per turn

Okay but I actually don't know: what does this accomplish? If you take their port down to level 0 what exactly does that do? Does the city also reduce in strength?

Doesn't affect the city at all, but if the port goes down to 0 then the convoy can no longer run to it and vanishes until the port has some strength points.

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Post #: 121

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/20/2021 10:22:02 PM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

Doesn't affect the city at all, but if the port goes down to 0 then the convoy can no longer run to it and vanishes until the port has some strength points.

Thats right. My example is basically killing two birds with two stones. The sea blockade reduces the port to shut down the convoy. The land siege is to reduce the towns supply...which honestly is a secondary objective. For the towns supply reduction...it will help the CP if the Entente player picked the second Serb HQ instead of the Montenegrin HQ and there's a Montenegrin unit defending Cetinje.

Sometimes, because of FoG...It's not apparent which HQ he picked...but a check on the unit defending Cetinje and its supply and readiness level will let you know if its under an HQ attachment...or not. :)

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/20/2021 10:23:26 PM >

(in reply to The Land)

Post #: 122

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/21/2021 3:31:09 AM

Chernobyl

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Why is reducing the town the secondary objective? Serbia gets a ton of MPP each turn from Cetinje and also the lower the city supply the easier it is to take the city. Eliminating the convoy is nice, but at least that MPP has to come from France.

And in any case the Entente can always "break" the montenegro blockade by "accidentally" striking the mine.

It might be nice to do, but it doesn't compare at all to reducing the city itself.

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 2/21/2021 3:33:03 AM >

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 123

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/21/2021 5:16:36 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Why is reducing the town the secondary objective? Serbia gets a ton of MPP each turn from Cetinje and also the lower the city supply the easier it is to take the city. Eliminating the convoy is nice, but at least that MPP has to come from France.

And in any case the Entente can always "break" the montenegro blockade by "accidentally" striking the mine.

It might be nice to do, but it doesn't compare at all to reducing the city itself.

Your right actually. The town can be reduced before the port will. I meant to say taking Cetinje comes second to taking Belgrade on the first turn. I put up a port blockade and then start popping the Cetinje to knock its entrenchments down slowly. This is with a AH mostly effort I devised for Serbia and Montenegro. I just reread what I posted and I wasn't very clear by using the word 'secondary objective'. I didn't make clear that Belgrade is the primary objective for the first turn.

Anyway..this deviated from your German led gambit on Montenegro...which doesn't have much of a chance of resisting that stratagem. I worked out another way with AH and one German corp to take both states down by spring of 1915, short of western Entente intervention. Belgrade needs to go down on turn one...two corps have to besiege Cetinje also on turn one...and a blockade of the port needs to be put up. Cetinje town is a secondary objective.

This image is the start of the CP turn 2 (Aug 15, 1915). Belgrade fell on turn 1. Cetinje will be reduced to 4 strength in 6 turns unless taken earlier..which is a possibility depending on what the Serbian (Entente) player does. There's another objective that needs to be reached and thats the Russo-Serb convoy line outside Nish.
That spot and Cetinje are secondary objectives. These both can be accomplished before spring 1915..and possibly sooner.

I was trying to figure out away to not send 3 or 4 German corps and an HQ into this AO. Those can be used in Galicia between Crackow and Pryzemsl for defending AH's left flank and future operations into Russian Poland...while still pursuing a France First with a strong right armed Schlieffen but static on the Verdun to Belfort Fortline.

I guess I went off topic from the subject of a purely Montenegrin focused Gambit.

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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/21/2021 6:12:51 AM >

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 124

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 3:20:27 AM

Chernobyl

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As of right now I don't prefer to attack Belgrade immediately. It has a chance of failure and in any case you can do just as well focusing on Serbian corps on turn 2.

Serbia basically can't resist a focused attack from the hills near Belgrade and they have to fall back immediately. If they entrench or reinforce where they stand, Serbia will lose a corps and then things snowball. Even if they retreat as far south as possible, you can chase them and punch a hole in the river (the one near your circled #3) on the third turn. Then later you can go take Belgrade at your leisure.

HOWEVER all that being said, I think it's a bit ridiculous how easy (70% chance? Someone else said 90% but it's not that easy for me) to take Belgrade on turn 1.

All in all, if I had to unilaterally change things now, I would do this:

#1:
EITHER: -Montenegro begins with their HQ in Pec, and the event which spawns a HQ is eliminated.
OR: -Montenegro starts with their second detachment in the hex north of Cetinje, preventing an immediate siege.
#2:
-Belgrade detachment begins at strength = 8 instead of 6
#3:
-Slightly beef up the starting Serbian corps situation, either by boosting a couple of them from strength 8 to 9, or by placing one in hex 188,95 southeast of Belgrade preventing an immediate Austrian river crossing + entrenchment via swap on turn 1. The fact that the Austrians can get a toehold and entrench across the Belgrade river on turn 1 pretty much dooms Belgrade in the long run even if it isn't captured immediately. The Serbian corps placed there may need to be set to strength 9 or 10, not sure.

Intended changes would be to secure Cetinge, to prevent a turn 1 capture of Belgrade, and to prevent a turn 1 breach of the terrain vital for Serbia making a reasonable stand along the northern border.

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 125

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 4:25:40 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

All in all, if I had to unilaterally change things now, I would do this:

#1:
EITHER: -Montenegro begins with their HQ in Pec, and the event which spawns a HQ is eliminated.
OR: -Montenegro starts with their second detachment in the hex north of Cetinje, preventing an immediate siege.
#2:
-Belgrade detachment begins at strength = 8 instead of 6
#3:
-Slightly beef up the starting Serbian corps situation, either by boosting a couple of them from strength 8 to 9, or by placing one in hex 188,95 southeast of Belgrade preventing an immediate Austrian river crossing + entrenchment via swap on turn 1. The fact that the Austrians can get a toehold and entrench across the Belgrade river on turn 1 pretty much dooms Belgrade in the long run even if it isn't captured immediately. The Serbian corps placed there may need to be set to strength 9 or 10, not sure.

Intended changes would be to secure Cetinge, to prevent a turn 1 capture of Belgrade, and to prevent a turn 1 breach of the terrain vital for Serbia making a reasonable stand along the northern border.

Yes...you nailed it down I think :)

#1: I would prefer the Pec Montenegrin detachment moved to that hex north of Cetinje over an early HQ deployment..but the latter is viable too.

#2 Yes on that. 8 strength detachment Belgrade.

#3 Yes on slightly strengthening the Serb corps or a big Yes on slightly adjusting the placement of an existing corp to stop the river crossing. (as far as I understand, the Austro-Hungarians didn't envelop Belgrade in the opening weeks of the war..they frontally assaulted it.)

btw..that image I posted previously was from the Trento-Alto-Adige edit thread I did earlier. That hotseat test was joined by a friend of mine...who finished demolishing Serbia and Montenegro by early summer 1915. I still have the images of each turn to Sept 1915 I believe.

However its accomplished...Serbia going down before even the Greeks get in is almost a death stroke for the Entente strategically. There's really no viable hope of intervening to stabilize that area at all. At least historically, Serbia held out long enough for their remaining forces to get to Corfu...and the western Entente to get established in Salonika. Doesn't happen if Serbia goes down by mid 1915..or even earlier for that matter.

Helluva good thread Chernobyl....there's been much food for thought here!

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/22/2021 4:28:22 AM >

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 126

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 4:41:53 AM

Chernobyl

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:3

I think it should be possible to destroy Serbia well before the historical date, but I have to admit as of now it's a bit too easy. (It can be even worse than that if Austria gets really nice rolls)

It pains me to say that as I love destroying Serbia quickly, but yeah. Too strong in my opinion.

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 2/22/2021 4:47:26 AM >

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 127

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 7:44:51 AM

mdsmall

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I am in the opening moves playing the Entente in a PBEM game and my opponent went "the full gambit" against Montenegro. Cetinje fell as forecast on turn 2 and Montenegro surrendered. Albania never joined the Entente and remains neutral. The French convoy ended and Serbia lost all access to a port on the Adriatic, so reinforcements from France were not even a theoretical possibility.

Things snowballed from there exactly as Chernobyl describes. I had to retreat my understrength Serbian corps to the hills and rivers between Pristina and Nish to prevent them from being outflanked. Even so, facing a concerted Austrian offensive reinforced by several German corps, the small Serbian army was demolished. Serbia will surrender next turn, before the end of October 1914. Bulgaria is preparing for war this turn, and the Ottomans should join the Central Powers by mid-November.

To add insult to injury, I discovered that DE423 offering Serbia the choice of having their second HQ part of the Serbian or Montenegrin army does not fire if Montenegro has surrendered. Jankovic never showed up.

Of course my opponent has made a strategic choice by deciding to concentrate a significant force against Serbia on the opening moves. But the strategic pay-off is huge and meanwhile the Central Powers are doing very nicely against the Russians. I might have made a couple of different reinforcement and entrenching decisions on Turn One that might have lengthened Serbia's survival by a turn or two at most, but not any more.

Given this experience, I would strongly endorse all of the tweaks suggested by Chernobyl and Old Crow above to improve Serbia's opening hand. The Entente player should expect Serbia to be in trouble by 1915. But Serbia's current opening deployments have some fatal weaknesses which can not be remedied against a CP player who knows how to exploit them.

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 128

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 8:40:12 AM

stockwellpete

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Do you think this "Montenegrin gambit" in its current form makes an "East First" strategy for the CP virtually unstoppable? What if your CP opponent in your PBEM game has decided that A-H will give up Trento and Trieste in the spring of 1915 (my understanding is that this always takes Italy out of the war)? So having taken Cetinje and knocked out Montenegro in September 1914, the CP quickly consolidates on the Western Front (just taking Luxemburg) and then switches his main attack to the Russians in late 1914 and 1915. The Russians would be completely isolated for about a year as the Entente would not have the required artillery to blast the Western Front open. The A-H infantry units could be used to police the Balkans and A-H could switch to improving Tech and strengthening their navy in order to contest the Mediterranean. Very hard to see how the Entente can win in that situation as it is relatively easy to keep the USA out of the war in 1917.

(in reply to mdsmall)

Post #: 129

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 8:48:56 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

I am in the opening moves playing the Entente in a PBEM game and my opponent went "the full gambit" against Montenegro. Cetinje fell as forecast on turn 2 and Montenegro surrendered. Albania never joined the Entente and remains neutral. The French convoy ended and Serbia lost all access to a port on the Adriatic, so reinforcements from France were not even a theoretical possibility.

Things snowballed from there exactly as Chernobyl describes. I had to retreat my understrength Serbian corps to the hills and rivers between Pristina and Nish to prevent them from being outflanked. Even so, facing a concerted Austrian offensive reinforced by several German corps, the small Serbian army was demolished. Serbia will surrender next turn, before the end of October 1914. Bulgaria is preparing for war this turn, and the Ottomans should join the Central Powers by mid-November.

To add insult to injury, I discovered that DE423 offering Serbia the choice of having their second HQ part of the Serbian or Montenegrin army does not fire if Montenegro has surrendered. Jankovic never showed up.

Of course my opponent has made a strategic choice by deciding to concentrate a significant force against Serbia on the opening moves. But the strategic pay-off is huge and meanwhile the Central Powers are doing very nicely against the Russians. I might have made a couple of different reinforcement and entrenching decisions on Turn One that might have lengthened Serbia's survival by a turn or two at most, but not any more.

Given this experience, I would strongly endorse all of the tweaks suggested by Chernobyl and Old Crow above to improve Serbia's opening hand. The Entente player should expect Serbia to be in trouble by 1915. But Serbia's current opening deployments have some fatal weaknesses which can not be remedied against a CP player who knows how to exploit them.

Serbia out by October 1914 due to the Montenegrin Gambit! Albania and Greece neutral so no where for any surviving Serbs to find refuge? The Entente wants to intervene, but Tirana and Salonika ports are off limits?

Well......

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/22/2021 11:04:02 AM >

(in reply to mdsmall)

Post #: 130

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 9:19:31 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

Do you think this "Montenegrin gambit" in its current form makes an "East First" strategy for the CP virtually unstoppable? What if your CP opponent in your PBEM game has decided that A-H will give up Trento and Trieste in the spring of 1915 (my understanding is that this always takes Italy out of the war)? So having taken Cetinje and knocked out Montenegro in September 1914, the CP quickly consolidates on the Western Front (just taking Luxemburg) and then switches his main attack to the Russians in late 1914 and 1915. The Russians would be completely isolated for about a year as the Entente would not have the required artillery to blast the Western Front open. The A-H infantry units could be used to police the Balkans and A-H could switch to improving Tech and strengthening their navy in order to contest the Mediterranean. Very hard to see how the Entente can win in that situation as it is relatively easy to keep the USA out of the war in 1917.

Yes...you are on to something here too! I had an opponent last summer that took down Serbia in early 1915...and elected to cede The Trentino to Italy.
At first, I thought that was crazy with the big NM hit...but that hit was compensated by his gain with Serbia.

The end result was the Entente in the Mediterranean at a worst position than in WW2. Italy was neutral. He swept Albania and Greece in 1915....ruled the waves in the eastern Mediterranean and Black Sea. Had Bulgarian and AH artillery on the Gaza...and all of Russia's gains in Galicia were lost by the end of that year, with Poland.

I was routed by 1916. However, it was instructive and morbidly interesting to experience it all.

(in reply to stockwellpete)

Post #: 131

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 9:38:43 AM

BillRunacre

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The French convoy to Serbia will not arrive if the port is at zero, meaning less MPPs for Serbia.

It also slows down the process of unloading units there, and prevents the embarkation of units. Neither may be of relevance here, but they may be elsewhere...

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Post #: 132

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 1:23:00 PM

shri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

:3

I think it should be possible to destroy Serbia well before the historical date, but I have to admit as of now it's a bit too easy. (It can be even worse than that if Austria gets really nice rolls)

It pains me to say that as I love destroying Serbia quickly, but yeah. Too strong in my opinion.

A shift to Serbia can also mean weakening the opening gambit in the west or worse a total flanking of Austria by Russia resulting in the loss of Lemberg or more.

Historically, Belgrade fell early but the Serbs counter-attacked well as the 2nd Army went to Lemberg. This is why Historical and game deviation crops up.

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 133

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 6:46:31 PM

Bavre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

I am in the opening moves playing the Entente in a PBEM game and my opponent went "the full gambit" against Montenegro. Cetinje fell as forecast on turn 2 and Montenegro surrendered. Albania never joined the Entente and remains neutral. The French convoy ended and Serbia lost all access to a port on the Adriatic, so reinforcements from France were not even a theoretical possibility.

Things snowballed from there exactly as Chernobyl describes. I had to retreat my understrength Serbian corps to the hills and rivers between Pristina and Nish to prevent them from being outflanked. Even so, facing a concerted Austrian offensive reinforced by several German corps, the small Serbian army was demolished. Serbia will surrender next turn, before the end of October 1914. Bulgaria is preparing for war this turn, and the Ottomans should join the Central Powers by mid-November.

To add insult to injury, I discovered that DE423 offering Serbia the choice of having their second HQ part of the Serbian or Montenegrin army does not fire if Montenegro has surrendered. Jankovic never showed up.

Of course my opponent has made a strategic choice by deciding to concentrate a significant force against Serbia on the opening moves. But the strategic pay-off is huge and meanwhile the Central Powers are doing very nicely against the Russians. I might have made a couple of different reinforcement and entrenching decisions on Turn One that might have lengthened Serbia's survival by a turn or two at most, but not any more.

Given this experience, I would strongly endorse all of the tweaks suggested by Chernobyl and Old Crow above to improve Serbia's opening hand. The Entente player should expect Serbia to be in trouble by 1915. But Serbia's current opening deployments have some fatal weaknesses which can not be remedied against a CP player who knows how to exploit them.

As I am the CP opponent in this game I can confirm that this was a totally hopeless fight from the start. Appart from some very very minor things mdsmall from my perspective did everything possible to keep Serbia alive.

I would suggest two things here:

The change in the Montenegro staring position OldCrow suggested and maybe allowing the Serbian units to start with full AP. This would make a full retreat at least an option. As it stands, even if Serbia does something unorthodox like giving up Belgrade, their units just get swallowed by the onslaught while en route to the mountains.

(in reply to mdsmall)

Post #: 134

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/22/2021 8:00:12 PM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre

As I am the CP opponent in this game I can confirm that this was a totally hopeless fight from the start. Appart from some very very minor things mdsmall from my perspective did everything possible to keep Serbia alive.

I would suggest two things here:

The change in the Montenegro staring position OldCrow suggested and maybe allowing the Serbian units to start with full AP. This would make a full retreat at least an option. As it stands, even if Serbia does something unorthodox like giving up Belgrade, their units just get swallowed by the onslaught while en route to the mountains.

This gambit may become a standard early game opening move for the CP in MP's unless some fixes are implemented. I've hot seated this twice...its unmitigated disaster for the Entente. I am curious though if there is anything else the Entente can do once 'accepting' that Serbia is lost and moving on. This aftermath of the Montenegro Gambit needs human vs human testing.

Short of the devs tweaking Montenegro and Serbia as proposed in various forms on this thread, it might take an Entente gambit of some type...

Hmmmm........

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/22/2021 8:01:10 PM >

(in reply to Bavre)

Post #: 135

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/23/2021 4:21:56 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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Bavre (Central Powers) and I (Entente) just started a match featuring Chernobyl's 'Montenegrin Gambit', and we are posting our moves in the War Room. Its time to see how bad or not this gambit is for the Entente.

Its going to be good fun.

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Post #: 136

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/23/2021 7:00:11 AM

mdsmall

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Does the 20-30% unit morale swing against allied Majors when "a country" surrenders (as per section 6.30.3 of the rules) apply to Montenegro too? If so, that not only will hasten Serbia's demise but will have a depressing effect on Russian, French and British units morale.

(in reply to mdsmall)

Post #: 137

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/23/2021 3:25:20 PM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Does the 20-30% unit morale swing against allied Majors when "a country" surrenders (as per section 6.30.3 of the rules) apply to Montenegro too? If so, that not only will hasten Serbia's demise but will have a depressing effect on Russian, French and British units morale.

Yes, these are universal settings applying to everyone on the relevant side.

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(in reply to mdsmall)

Post #: 138

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/23/2021 3:45:21 PM

mdsmall

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Does the 20-30% unit morale swing against allied Majors when "a country" surrenders (as per section 6.30.3 of the rules) apply to Montenegro too? If so, that not only will hasten Serbia's demise but will have a depressing effect on Russian, French and British units morale.

Yes, these are universal settings applying to everyone on the relevant side.

So, the Montenegro Gambit has an immediate negative continent-wide effect on Entente unit morale. That makes it an even more rewarding move for the Central Powers.

(in reply to BillRunacre)

Post #: 139

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/23/2021 8:50:11 PM

Bavre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Does the 20-30% unit morale swing against allied Majors when "a country" surrenders (as per section 6.30.3 of the rules) apply to Montenegro too? If so, that not only will hasten Serbia's demise but will have a depressing effect on Russian, French and British units morale.

Yes, these are universal settings applying to everyone on the relevant side.

So, the Montenegro Gambit has an immediate negative continent-wide effect on Entente unit morale. That makes it an even more rewarding move for the Central Powers.

Yup, that's also the reason why my combat odds are sometimes so extremely good in our game. Damned russian weather unfortunatelly prevented me from fully capitalizing on the same effect after Serbias end

(in reply to mdsmall)

Post #: 140

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/24/2021 1:58:51 AM

mdsmall

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Does the 20-30% unit morale swing against allied Majors when "a country" surrenders (as per section 6.30.3 of the rules) apply to Montenegro too? If so, that not only will hasten Serbia's demise but will have a depressing effect on Russian, French and British units morale.

Yes, these are universal settings applying to everyone on the relevant side.

In my current game, my CP opponent used the morale swing against the Entente caused by Montenegro's surrender to attack on the Western Front in September 1914, even though he was pursuing an all East strategy. It worked - it gave him the edge he needed to kill a couple of entrenched French corps with minor losses on his side.

Surely, this makes no sense. I highly doubt that the average soldier in either the German or French armies had even heard of Montenegro, much less would have been inspired or worried or its by its surrender. The impact on Serbian morale is a different matter (and the impact of Serbia's surrender as a Major Power on the rest of the Entente is a different matter).

Is there a fix for this, so that Montenegro's surrender only impacts the morale of Serbian units? If that's not a fix that can be made for just for Montenegro perhaps a future patch could consider making the morale swing caused by a minor's surrender only apply to its controlling major and the major that conquered it.

Or maybe it is time to just decide that Montenegro as a separate minor is too big a strategic liability for the entire Entente and - at least in military terms - it should be incorporated into Serbia on the declaration of war. A new DE could be written to award a significant NM loss for Serbia if Cetinje is captured. That would still make it an important target for the Central Powers as part of their campaign against Serbia. But at least it would not have reverberations felt as far away as the Western Front.

< Message edited by mdsmall -- 2/24/2021 2:12:16 AM >

(in reply to BillRunacre)

Post #: 141

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/24/2021 2:08:41 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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Seeing that Cetinje is certain to fall means that when the Entente sees the Germans lined up in Dalmatia...its time to turtle and last as long as possible for the Russians sake. With no where to run outside of Serbia..the only other alternative with the turtle defense is to wardec Albania to have a place to run...but that's probably not viable.

The other is a hail mary and try to pull the Bulgarian Gambit with the Serbs, but because of positioning and the fact that the Bulgar detachment is now at 3 ground cover...that isn't viable either. And anyway..I like the fact that Sofia has slightly better defences...and it should be even stronger.

In my opinion...the Entente player shouldn't have to come up with the hair brained schemes like I just illustrated. I also like the Montenegrin Gambit....but Cetinje should be significantly harder to crack...at least a few more turns anyway. Historically AH naval blockaded and repeatedly hammered on this mountainous and inaccessible town and its fjord like harbor...even if a German army group arrived...I think it would of taken longer than 2 to 4 weeks like happens in our tested matches.

The other thing is the Albanian neutrality deal. If the Serbs were that desperate to get to the sea...wouldn't you think they would just cut trail through that semi-lawless land?

Maybe another solution is that if Montenegro surrenders before Albania joins the Entente...that an event fires that makes Albania join..or a event decision that the Entente (thinking France) pays to accelerate that or not.

One thing that I like about The Montenegrin Gambit, though, is that it makes a Russia First strategy viable again.
However...in my opinion...it should be harder to do.

(in reply to Bavre)

Post #: 142

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/24/2021 6:51:25 AM

shri

Posts: 192
Joined: 7/20/2017
Status: offline

a few proposals (some are already being considered)-

1. Entente can send alternative convoy via albania or greece (greece better) but with reduced efficiency.
2. Albania should join on turn 2 of the game if more than 10 corps units around Cetinje and Belgrade. (which means Germans in, Albania in), the Albanians joining should make Bulgars tilt towards Germany and Greece to go neutral (Greece immediately joining will make a mess, also Greece was divided between the pro German King and anti German Prime minister)
3. For only MP games, instead of getting free artillery for Russia and UK in Caucasus, Egypt and Mesopotamia, an extra convoy from South America for say 25/30 MPP per turn for the UK can be given (UK can choose to pass on some of the extra to Russia via Convoy) and Entente should be forced to build and transport these artillery, HQ and corps.
Right now, UK gets about 1600-2000 MPP free due to auto spawn on various levels (adding transport costs) and Russia about 300-360.

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 143

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/25/2021 7:02:40 PM

OldCrowBalthazor

Posts: 1108
Joined: 7/2/2020
From: Republic of Cascadia
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New patch changes everything for the better!

The detachment in Cetinje, Montenegro is now entrenched...this will help. However, if the CP wants to pull a Montenegrin Gambit, that town will still fall. None the less, that's ok if the following would occur in a future patch:

I think Albania should have an event or dec event to fire if Cetinje falls...so like if a turn 2 surrender happens for Montenegro...the Entente at least might have an option to intervene through Albania...that is at least unless a Schlieffen is happening...and then its on the Russians to punish Austria-Hungary.

This is based on Bavre and my Montenegrin Gambit test featured in the War Room. There are other ideas that could help with Montenegro in a future patch. I like the Montenegro Gambit...but I humbly believe that with the terrain and inaccessibility of Kotor Bay, Mt Lovcen and Cetinje itself...that Montenegro should be tougher to swallow up. They held out to 1916....and collapsed about the same time as Serbia fell apart.

cheers about the new changes!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/25/2021 7:06:51 PM >

(in reply to shri)

Post #: 144

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/25/2021 7:54:53 PM

hottegetthoff

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/7/2020
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I suggest a change for the strategy. Honestly, you dont need to attack montenegro right away, and the german units may be used well elsewhere in those beginning turns, serbia wont be able to go on a offensive against austrians for some time.

Austrians should focus on attacking Belgade and Valjevo, you attack Cetinje similarly (and similar effect) with German units in 1915 when Albania joins the war and kill two birds with one stone. This offers several advantages:

1-immediately, you get additional route of attack through albania, outflanking serbia even more and stretching them thinner

2-austria can rest for sometime after initial objectives and focus on Russia (ties in better with east first strateggies and can save them some money)

3-plunder and income will mater more in long run, along with ability to plan spending better as mentioned above if you capture albania also (its not much but always something, its important to divide the spoils in the Balkans between the 3 big players for most optimal performance)
4-Additional route of attacking eventually into Greece later, this can be a disadvantage if Entente invests in Greece, but i feel like its easier for CP to muster units here than Entente in the end.

5-Albania gives you an additional harbour, and when Greece joins you can take Corfu very early and it gives you a lot of uses in your struggle in mediterranean.

Of course, Cetinje may be defended much harder, but with if you time it right, coordinate, Serbs have to give in either in Montenegro or in Serbia proper.

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 145

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/25/2021 8:24:31 PM

Tendraline

Posts: 36
Joined: 9/28/2020
Status: offline

I think you are missing the point of the original strategy, which is to eliminate Montenegro before it can spawn enough forces to cover Serbia's flank. On the first and second turns there are only two detachments to oppose you, but then on the third there is suddenly a corps, which greatly bolsters the defense of this region.

Secondly, any early attack on Montenegro is a mainly German affair, as they have troops to spare from the west (especially if they are not doing Schlieffen). Thus, a player would often do both, as OldCrowBalthazor demonstrated at the top of this page.

As for income, by keeping Albania out of the war, the MPPs it provides to Russia never arrives. And this is not insignificant in the beginning stages of the game, some 11 MPPs. Yes, the Central Powers suffer worse over time, but it is less of a problem than imagined.

(in reply to hottegetthoff)

Post #: 146

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/25/2021 9:03:47 PM

hottegetthoff

Posts: 33
Joined: 5/7/2020
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Id say that german corps with Mackensen can still break through, you can use whichever tools you want honestly. But going for Montenegro later has its benefits aswell, i just wanted to point that out. My only universal recommendation is to let A-H get the serbian plunder and income, while Germans make most of the offensive.

Basically its still harder to defend cetinje where they can get boxed in and cut off, than the Serbia proper with room for counter attacks.

(in reply to Tendraline)

Post #: 147

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/25/2021 9:55:57 PM

Chernobyl

Posts: 444
Joined: 8/27/2012
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Don't mean to be a Negative Nancy but I just did a quick hotseat test in the new 1.04 patch and Cetinje is still extremely easy to take. I don't think the entrenchment does very much. Montenegro needs its HQ out improving their defense.

I think also my prior testing quite possibly didn't take into account this "surrender unit bonus" which I wasn't aware of. In my latest test I made sure to conquer Luxembourg (previous testing I hadn't bothered to do so) and I think this improved my unit readiness. Not sure. But in any case the German corps that I railed next to Cetinje was predicted to do 4 damage to the full strength fully entrenched detachment. This is higher than I remember from previous testing so that's why I assume this "surrender bonus" is in play (still not clear on exactly how it works). Whatever the cause, there's no way for Montenegro to win if the attacks against their capital are so strong.

Would still recommend spawning the Montenegro HQ before the attack can take place, and giving Montenegro an alternate capital in Pec.

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 2/25/2021 10:05:11 PM >

(in reply to hottegetthoff)

Post #: 148

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/25/2021 10:44:54 PM

Bavre

Posts: 299
Joined: 12/5/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Don't mean to be a Negative Nancy but I just did a quick hotseat test in the new 1.04 patch and Cetinje is still extremely easy to take. I don't think the entrenchment does very much. Montenegro needs its HQ out improving their defense.

I think also my prior testing quite possibly didn't take into account this "surrender unit bonus" which I wasn't aware of. In my latest test I made sure to conquer Luxembourg (previous testing I hadn't bothered to do so) and I think this improved my unit readiness. Not sure. But in any case the German corps that I railed next to Cetinje was predicted to do 4 damage to the full strength fully entrenched detachment. This is higher than I remember from previous testing so that's why I assume this "surrender bonus" is in play (still not clear on exactly how it works). Whatever the cause, there's no way for Montenegro to win if the attacks against their capital are so strong.

Would still recommend spawning the Montenegro HQ before the attack can take place, and giving Montenegro an alternate capital in Pec.

Oh yes! This temporary "surrender unit bonus" is absolutely nuts, especially once you are able to halfway reliably gauge your units abilities under its effects in advance and are prepared to reap its benefits. You can literally waltz up to a fortress town and just take it with minor losses. Now that I know its power I would gladly throw 6 corps + Hindenburg at Montenegro if neccessary without even batting an eye, just for that alone. And for Serbia the fall of Montenegro is double doom: open flank and CP units on steroids.

< Message edited by Bavre -- 2/25/2021 10:47:10 PM >

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 149

RE: Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2 - 2/25/2021 11:34:59 PM

Chernobyl

Posts: 444
Joined: 8/27/2012
Status: offline

Elaborating on my above post for 1.04, railing in the str 10 Serbian corps is slightly stronger defense than repairing the Montenegro detachment. However, it's not that much stronger, even with the free trenches due to the patch.

My german corps which attacks first is predicting 3 damage to the enemy Serbian corps. This is too much. The Serbian corps will die in one turn to my strikeforce. If the predictor was saying only 2 damage, then maybe it would have a chance with good rolls.

On a side note I think that surrender bonus is what makes turn 2 assaults on Nancy or Lodz so effective. Luxembourg surrenders and you get to do something cool with attacks next turn.

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 2/25/2021 11:37:14 PM >

(in reply to hottegetthoff)

Post #: 150

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