Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: wodin
So please someone start work on a monster tactical wargame or an innovative tactical wargame design, or both in one game. A monster innovative tactical wargame. Yes please.

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

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ORIGINAL: wodin
So please someone start work on a monster tactical wargame or an innovative tactical wargame design, or both in one game. A monster innovative tactical wargame. Yes please.

Second Front, please please. Maybe Steel Tigers but I expect that it will tread familiar ground...

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ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
So please someone start work on a monster tactical wargame or an innovative tactical wargame design, or both in one game. A monster innovative tactical wargame. Yes please.

Second Front, please please. Maybe Steel Tigers but I expect that it will tread familiar ground...

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

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ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

Very hard to answer, indeed.

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ORIGINAL: z1812

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ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

Very hard to answer, indeed.

I had to smile at the original answer from Curtis Lemay. The visual it conjured up for me was Allied and Axis Generals writing notes to one another asking "Is it my turn or yours?".

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: z1812

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ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

Very hard to answer, indeed.

I had to smile at the original answer from Curtis Lemay. The visual it conjured up for me was Allied and Axis Generals writing notes to one another asking "Is it my turn or yours?".

So...you have HARD EVIDENCE for WEGO working better than IGOYGO? Or are you just one of the priests of WEGO?

WEGO replaces the shortcomings of IGOYGO with different - possibly worse - shortcomings of its own.

Plenty of theories sound really good on paper. But how they actually model reality ought to be what matters.

Where's the evidence for it?

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: z1812

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ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

Very hard to answer, indeed.

I had to smile at the original answer from Curtis Lemay. The visual it conjured up for me was Allied and Axis Generals writing notes to one another asking "Is it my turn or yours?".

So...you have HARD EVIDENCE for WEGO working better than IGOYGO? Or are you just one of the priests of WEGO?

WEGO replaces the shortcomings of IGOYGO with different - possibly worse - shortcomings of its own.

Plenty of theories sound really good on paper. But how they actually model reality ought to be what matters.

Where's the evidence for it?

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ORIGINAL: loki100

The advantage of WEGO is they all key off some order system. That adds a massive degree of realism usually lacking in IGOUGO.

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In turn, and this is closely linked, they tend to give better vs AI experiences as the player can't micro-manage their way to victory.

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Both design frameworks can produce excellent games. But WEGO gives a much more realistic flavour - check out Campaigns on the Danube and play it with the worst FOW setting. Not only are you issuing orders to engage with an enemy who might not be there when you arrive, you don't even know for sure where you own formations are exactly. There is no way can you recreate that experience in an IGOUGO design but it captures the core of Napoleonic operational level warfare as a result.

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Because, in that game units can't just wander the maps, they need to stick to the main roads can get strung out over many miles and rely on horse drawn supply trains. And in turn, using your light cavalry to screen and scout all get their proper role.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

I so want ST to be THE one which it should have a chance of being the one IF it takes Steel Panthers as the foundation then use the power of modern PC's to enhance and expand it's depth and obviously graphics, maybe drop IGOUGO for WEGO, new urban combat features etc it in the perfect world will be the one, but for some reason I'm not confident, it's Grigsby and Billings being involved that is the spark for my hope.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

...

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Both design frameworks can produce excellent games. But WEGO gives a much more realistic flavour - check out Campaigns on the Danube and play it with the worst FOW setting. Not only are you issuing orders to engage with an enemy who might not be there when you arrive, you don't even know for sure where you own formations are exactly. There is no way can you recreate that experience in an IGOUGO design but it captures the core of Napoleonic operational level warfare as a result.

IGOUGO can't have FOW?

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Because, in that game units can't just wander the maps, they need to stick to the main roads can get strung out over many miles and rely on horse drawn supply trains. And in turn, using your light cavalry to screen and scout all get their proper role.

?? Can't IGOUGO have the same sort of movement restrictions and recon needs?

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ORIGINAL: loki100

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

...

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Both design frameworks can produce excellent games. But WEGO gives a much more realistic flavour - check out Campaigns on the Danube and play it with the worst FOW setting. Not only are you issuing orders to engage with an enemy who might not be there when you arrive, you don't even know for sure where you own formations are exactly. There is no way can you recreate that experience in an IGOUGO design but it captures the core of Napoleonic operational level warfare as a result.

IGOUGO can't have FOW?

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Because, in that game units can't just wander the maps, they need to stick to the main roads can get strung out over many miles and rely on horse drawn supply trains. And in turn, using your light cavalry to screen and scout all get their proper role.

?? Can't IGOUGO have the same sort of movement restrictions and recon needs?

ok, now accepting you are probably arguing for the simple reason of ...

tell me which IGO designs have those features, indeed how would you embed a proper order based system into an IGO game

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What prevents an IGOUGO game from having some part of the players forces moved by PO once orders are delivered via courier? They could even move blind to the player.

That no such game may exist is irrelevant. What matters is that nothing prevents it. These aren't real differences between IGOYGO and WEGO.

The difference between IGOYGO and WEGO is that under WEGO forces move simultaneously but mindlessly. In IGOYGO they move consecutively but sentiently. I would contend that sentience is more important than simultaneousness.

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ORIGINAL: altipueri

WEGO has the great advantage of allowing you to see the consequences of your own folly unfold in front of your eyes.

e.g. - Crimean War:

"Where the fcuk are they going? I told them to save our guns, not charge the Russian guns."

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ORIGINAL: Orm

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ORIGINAL: altipueri

WEGO has the great advantage of allowing you to see the consequences of your own folly unfold in front of your eyes.

e.g. - Crimean War:

"Where the fcuk are they going? I told them to save our guns, not charge the Russian guns."

That can happen in a IGOUGO system as well. You can give your order, but the unit commander then interprets the order and acts as it find best.

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ORIGINAL: Mobeer

The disadvantage of IGOUGO is that the light brigade is probably split into many squadrons\troops. When the first troop gets moved and destroyed the player then moves the rest of the brigade differently, whereas in WEGO all the units of the brigade move together.

More generally, WEGO means the player cannot use information gained within a turn to guide the movements of other units in the same turn. IGOUGO allows a player to move one unit through the time period of a turn, then give orders to the next unit at the start of that turn's time period with knowledge gained during the period.

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ORIGINAL: wodin

I think WEGO works the best at the tactical scale and the higher the scale the less impact it has. To me it's obvious that at the tactical scale WEGO represents realism far better than IGOUGO. I believe that if the first type of wargame developed was digital and not board we'd have never seen the IGOUGO mechanic. Like abstract squads as it would have been way to fiddly to try and do 1 man casualties in a boardgame which means to my frustration tactical wargames carry over this boardgame limitation to the PC on the whole. SO many tactical wargames out on the PC have these boardgame restrictions holding them back sadly.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
... But, under WEGO, each fleet obeys its orders and sails right into the teeth of that death trap one after the other - an ambush turns into total annihilation.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: Mobeer

The disadvantage of IGOUGO is that the light brigade is probably split into many squadrons\troops. When the first troop gets moved and destroyed the player then moves the rest of the brigade differently, whereas in WEGO all the units of the brigade move together.

More generally, WEGO means the player cannot use information gained within a turn to guide the movements of other units in the same turn. IGOUGO allows a player to move one unit through the time period of a turn, then give orders to the next unit at the start of that turn's time period with knowledge gained during the period.

The disadvantage of WEGO is that NOBODY gets to make use of info gained - even units that realistically could have done so.

So...you order your merchant fleets to sail through a supposedly quiet sector of the seas. What you didn't count on was that the enemy was poaching on that sector with his carriers! Boom! One fleet gets mauled by the carriers. Realistically, that ought to be the end of it - everybody else would turn around. But, under WEGO, each fleet obeys its orders and sails right into the teeth of that death trap one after the other - an ambush turns into total annihilation.

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ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC

Well I don't have a huge preference either way - my preference is a well designed war game that portrays the campaign being simulated in a proper manner (I leave this vague for a reason). Either system can work well when the other elements of the game are designed well.

This debate about WEGO or IGOUGO needs to address scale and sequence of play. They are not stand alone styles but are integrated into other game core elements which make a whole game a good one or a dog.

Is the game turn minutes, hours days weeks or months long? Makes a huge difference in how to simulate the flow of information.
What does the turn sequence look like? Does the non-phasing player get any reaction move/shoot or opportunity fire? Makes for big differences between game types.

My personal opinion (which won't buy coffee) is a good game is up to the designer to not mess it up. It can be either type of game as both have produced award winning titles.