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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/1/2021 3:28:45 PM   
Evoken

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


quote:

ORIGINAL: 29000Kevin
Well the siege of Vladivostok shall begin its going to be bloody and brutal and be the Soviet Union's equivalent of the Battle of Stalingrad, which is still ongoing as of December 1942.

But first it's going to be tedious and repetitive. For like a year

Maybe, but maybe not. Supply shortage negates the huge firepower advantage that SOV has, so then it is just AV and IJ can match/beat the AV numbers. If he drops forts each attack, then 15 or so attacks (max) and it should be done once supply is low. This is like CK only less AV ... I think totally doable once the firepower is negated.

If it gives any sense of comparison, in my test, it took roughly 5 months for over 20 IJA divisions, with numerous supporting tanks & artillery, and bombers, with a December ‘41 start. For the Soviet, there were roughly 3000 AV and 300k supplies in Voroshilov/Vladivostok.
Roughly an attack per week, massive casualties at first, but supplies dropped fast, and casualties were less severe once the lack of supply showed (and with reduced forts).

Off course, it was the starting ‘41 Rifle squads, with partly disabled units. Voroshilov might have higher forts in your game, and there might be more Soviet AV (supplies, is the Intel at 1 trillion yen). Your units might be of higher XP too, overall, given your use of them earlier.

May i ask have you used naval bombardements ? Battleship bombardements usually vaporize supplies real fast. Desertwolf could use Yamato and Nagato sisters at max range untill coastal guns are destroyed or disabled and then bring in smaller gun battleships. Park some AKE's at Rashin and start daily battleship bombardements imo but you gotta sacrifice some ships to mines first so big guns dont hit them

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/1/2021 6:53:13 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


quote:

ORIGINAL: 29000Kevin
Well the siege of Vladivostok shall begin its going to be bloody and brutal and be the Soviet Union's equivalent of the Battle of Stalingrad, which is still ongoing as of December 1942.

But first it's going to be tedious and repetitive. For like a year

Maybe, but maybe not. Supply shortage negates the huge firepower advantage that SOV has, so then it is just AV and IJ can match/beat the AV numbers. If he drops forts each attack, then 15 or so attacks (max) and it should be done once supply is low. This is like CK only less AV ... I think totally doable once the firepower is negated.

If it gives any sense of comparison, in my test, it took roughly 5 months for over 20 IJA divisions, with numerous supporting tanks & artillery, and bombers, with a December ‘41 start. For the Soviet, there were roughly 3000 AV and 300k supplies in Voroshilov/Vladivostok.
Roughly an attack per week, massive casualties at first, but supplies dropped fast, and casualties were less severe once the lack of supply showed (and with reduced forts).

Off course, it was the starting ‘41 Rifle squads, with partly disabled units. Voroshilov might have higher forts in your game, and there might be more Soviet AV (supplies, is the Intel at 1 trillion yen). Your units might be of higher XP too, overall, given your use of them earlier.

May i ask have you used naval bombardements ? Battleship bombardements usually vaporize supplies real fast. Desertwolf could use Yamato and Nagato sisters at max range untill coastal guns are destroyed or disabled and then bring in smaller gun battleships. Park some AKE's at Rashin and start daily battleship bombardements imo but you gotta sacrifice some ships to mines first so big guns dont hit them

Yeah, I did, but without Yamato and Musashi. I first used the IJN to take Sakhalin and all the ports, though. I mostly used the Ise & Hyuga classes at Vlad, figuring they would have a lesser impact if they were damaged than the Kongos. This limited somewhat the results.

When I dared come closer than max range, I usually got some hefty damage. No penetrating hits, probably too far for that, but the Sys dmg accumulating from a couple bombardments was enough to send the ships to the RSY for two weeks. Otherwise, the very occasional mine hits was annoying.

Bear in mind the premise was different. DesertWolf has finished the conquest of the SRA, so he may afford more damage to his battleships, while my test was to see how long it’d take, without completely wasting the IJN and 12 main assault divisions, and how much the Allies could improve their situation (without going all-in on the build-up).

ÉDIT: I also don’t pretend to have played perfectly. I did not change a lot of leaders, I churned out turns quite fast. A more careful and detail-oriented manner might have changed a month, probably.
From the Soviet side, I started moving troops back from Voroshilov to Vladivostok when forts were down to 3, gradually, starting the day after a big attack. When I saw a move icon from the Japanese side, I launched another shock attack, to see if it could win the day and provoke a rout, but all it did was destroy a lot of already disabled squads.

< Message edited by Ambassador -- 3/1/2021 6:57:51 PM >

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/1/2021 6:59:21 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 29000Kevin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Operation Furnace

I had a chat with Andy and he made it clear that he has no intention of disbanding any more units from the Vladivostok pocket. This means that the Japanese effort to take Vladivostok, which I have dubbed Operation Furnace, is going forward.

My intention at this stage is to take Vladivostok in about a years time. This is no blitz like Siberian Winter but rather a steady and deliberate grind against entrenched forces with, inevitably, heavy Japanese casualties. A key part of this effort is the erosion of the pocket's supply which should make a huge difference in the outcome. This component of the operation will now intensify and as the Japanese offensive in the north concludes will be joined by ground operations which will hopefully conclude with the eventual storming of the key bases of Voroshilov and Vladivostok.

In terms of eroding the pocket's supply, I will use light bombers to eat into his stockpiles through the use of flak, medium bombers to target his industry and airfields for supply hits, naval bombardment against Vladivostok itself, and progressively more intensive ground operations to ramp up his consumption. Banzai!


Well the siege of Vladivostok shall begin its going to be bloody and brutal and be the Soviet Union's equivalent of the Battle of Stalingrad, which is still ongoing as of December 1942.

You should also be carful to note if Andy is using planes to evacuate partial parts of the Soviet Armies trapped in their, although the last time we saw Andy sending Transport planes was in the Ceylon campaign but it was a reinforcements and all that did was send the Allies onto a free ride to a Japanese POW camp *shivers*.




Ah Operation Morning Mist - the invasion of Ceylon - you are brining back some happy memories haha.

Air transport is no longer an option for Andy. Even the closest Soviet base to the pocket is too far away to transport forces out or in by air.

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/1/2021 7:02:17 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Me? I would keep forcing North in the SOV. If you gain Krasnovarsk, Abakan, and Wasu, the SOV units entering the map have no base, so no air cover. There are no other entry points for the SOV, meaning the late war SOV airforce doesn't exist. Yes, eventually he will march his troops out, but you will always have the advantage of an air force whereas he will not. Huge advantage ...


Pax, the Soviet Air Force will be a minimal threat until 1945 - their starting force has been largely thrashed and they don't start getting replacement aircraft in serious numbers until December 1944. Soviet ground units on the other hand, especially in infantry and artillery, will be a very serious threat and in large numbers in just a few months time as he rebuilds his divisions and organizes himself. This threat progressively grows over the next few years and explodes in mid-1945.

Basically, assuming I am able to choose my defensive positions, it is far better to deal with the primary Soviet threat in the narrow blocking positions in the mountains than to extend myself in the vulnerable plains next to his offmap entry points. There really is not much advantage in taking this advance much further.

Well, if you take Abakan and Krasnovarsk, his only entry point is Wasu. That would be lousy for him as his supply is not going to flow to support too many units. He cannot move east as there are no roads, he has to move south for a LONG way before he actually gets to a rail line . You know how hard it is to get oil to flow from Urumchi, it can be done, but it take effort. Imagine the effort to get 10K supply/day to travel even longer on the same road?

IOW: you will have taken SOV out of the game for all intents and purposes ... you won't have to fight the '45 SOV or the 44 or the 43. They will be stuck in Mongolia...


You mean to tell me that the Soviet player cannot march his units across into the map like he can in the Wasu area? Wow, I didn't realize that. If that's the case then yes, I totally agree, taking Abakan and Krasnovarsk would indeed be very advantageous. Don't think I can make it there though given how many forces he pulled out and disbanded from the pocket that will be coming into the line in the next months.

He can march any where, but look at the roads ... not much supply is going to move. So, no matter what he / where he goes, until he gets Abakan or Krasnovarsk liberated, he is going to be fighting with NO air force AND a supply shortage ... IJ can win those fights.


Not to belabor this Pax, but just for my own edification: If he can march across from the offmap bases to the Krasnovarsk area, won't he be getting supplies easily through the rail? Or does supply flow along the rail only work when you possess a base at the end point?

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/1/2021 7:07:32 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


quote:

ORIGINAL: 29000Kevin
Well the siege of Vladivostok shall begin its going to be bloody and brutal and be the Soviet Union's equivalent of the Battle of Stalingrad, which is still ongoing as of December 1942.

But first it's going to be tedious and repetitive. For like a year

Maybe, but maybe not. Supply shortage negates the huge firepower advantage that SOV has, so then it is just AV and IJ can match/beat the AV numbers. If he drops forts each attack, then 15 or so attacks (max) and it should be done once supply is low. This is like CK only less AV ... I think totally doable once the firepower is negated.

If it gives any sense of comparison, in my test, it took roughly 5 months for over 20 IJA divisions, with numerous supporting tanks & artillery, and bombers, with a December ‘41 start. For the Soviet, there were roughly 3000 AV and 300k supplies in Voroshilov/Vladivostok.
Roughly an attack per week, massive casualties at first, but supplies dropped fast, and casualties were less severe once the lack of supply showed (and with reduced forts).

Off course, it was the starting ‘41 Rifle squads, with partly disabled units. Voroshilov might have higher forts in your game, and there might be more Soviet AV (supplies, is the Intel at 1 trillion yen). Your units might be of higher XP too, overall, given your use of them earlier.


I plan to allocate about 25 divisions to Operation Furnace with supporting armor, artillery, and air support so somewhat similar to what you had. I think he will have way more AV and excellent forts at Voroshilov though. Very likely much more supply too so it's going to be tricky. I plan to allocate more than double the time that you did it in though so we shall see. Human players can also be quite tricky so maybe Andy will throw me some curve balls that the AI didn't in your game as well.

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/1/2021 7:28:22 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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December 19-25, 1942

Not too much to update on as the past game week has been relatively less intense.

In India Andy has pulled out the Commonwealth fighter squadrons from Karachi but beefed up its CAP with American squadrons. The P-40K also made its debut and its already proving quite superior to the E version. I resumed my sweeps once more and the previous 3 to 1 kill ratio in my favor has dropped to 2 to 1. The only aircraft I have that can reach Karachi at normal range (with drop tanks) is the A6M3a so this is clearly not a sustainable situation since Andy will get progressively better fighters and I will not have any fighters with similar range in my arsenal going forward.

In the Soviet Union the Japanese are now in the mountains and I am pushing forward to meet Andy who has halted his retreating army and started digging in. I think I will test his defenses with an attack but in the tough terrain my hopes are not very high - it's worth a try though. Unfortunately air support is not really an option as he packed his army with AA guns and when I tried to bomb it the losses were just too heavy.

The first steps of Operation Furnace are taking shape. Air bombing has increased but weather is proving a bit problematic with numerous canceled sorties. I flooded the Vladivostok approaches with ASW craft to clear away his pesky submarines which he has brought back from offensive operations to defensive ones. He should still have about half his Soviet submarines operational. I will also bring up some ASW air closer to Vladivostok to do some damage as it's proving one of my best anti-submarine assets. Once the sub threat is gone I can begin the naval bombardment part of the operation.

< Message edited by DesertWolf101 -- 3/1/2021 7:29:58 PM >

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/1/2021 10:28:03 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Well, if you take Abakan and Krasnovarsk, his only entry point is Wasu. That would be lousy for him as his supply is not going to flow to support too many units. He cannot move east as there are no roads, he has to move south for a LONG way before he actually gets to a rail line . You know how hard it is to get oil to flow from Urumchi, it can be done, but it take effort. Imagine the effort to get 10K supply/day to travel even longer on the same road?

IOW: you will have taken SOV out of the game for all intents and purposes ... you won't have to fight the '45 SOV or the 44 or the 43. They will be stuck in Mongolia...


You mean to tell me that the Soviet player cannot march his units across into the map like he can in the Wasu area? Wow, I didn't realize that. If that's the case then yes, I totally agree, taking Abakan and Krasnovarsk would indeed be very advantageous. Don't think I can make it there though given how many forces he pulled out and disbanded from the pocket that will be coming into the line in the next months.


Since this is a gray area few players ever trodden (myself included) I went and did a test to clear things up. I activated Soviets in Stock 1 from turn 1 as well as put mobile units in all Soviet offmap bases.

Soviets can march freely from whatever off-map bases using whatever corridor. So no, capturing Abakan and Krasnoyarsk does not remove entry points for later push from off-map

Screenshot shows IDs marching on foot to Krasnoyarsk and Abakan starting from SU:




Attachment (1)

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 2:14:32 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Well, if you take Abakan and Krasnovarsk, his only entry point is Wasu. That would be lousy for him as his supply is not going to flow to support too many units. He cannot move east as there are no roads, he has to move south for a LONG way before he actually gets to a rail line . You know how hard it is to get oil to flow from Urumchi, it can be done, but it take effort. Imagine the effort to get 10K supply/day to travel even longer on the same road?

IOW: you will have taken SOV out of the game for all intents and purposes ... you won't have to fight the '45 SOV or the 44 or the 43. They will be stuck in Mongolia...


You mean to tell me that the Soviet player cannot march his units across into the map like he can in the Wasu area? Wow, I didn't realize that. If that's the case then yes, I totally agree, taking Abakan and Krasnovarsk would indeed be very advantageous. Don't think I can make it there though given how many forces he pulled out and disbanded from the pocket that will be coming into the line in the next months.


Since this is a gray area few players ever trodden (myself included) I went and did a test to clear things up. I activated Soviets in Stock 1 from turn 1 as well as put mobile units in all Soviet offmap bases.

Soviets can march freely from whatever off-map bases using whatever corridor. So no, capturing Abakan and Krasnoyarsk does not remove entry points for later push from off-map

Screenshot shows IDs marching on foot to Krasnoyarsk and Abakan starting from SU:





I was thinking I should test this myself so I am glad you already did it and shared the results. My assumption is that supplies would flow freely down the rail to the units without actually needing to have control of a base at the end of the line on the map. If that is indeed the case, then I go back to my original assessment which is that there is little benefit to pushing all the way to the map's edge.

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 8:49:18 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
I was thinking I should test this myself so I am glad you already did it and shared the results. My assumption is that supplies would flow freely down the rail to the units without actually needing to have control of a base at the end of the line on the map. If that is indeed the case, then I go back to my original assessment which is that there is little benefit to pushing all the way to the map's edge.

Yes, supplies can flow freely from off-map bases to on-map units. I dealt with it a lot in my AI games conquering US, and I don't think SOV is any different

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 12:33:08 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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December 26-28, 1942

I finally caught up to Andy's Soviet army in the north and I have ordered a deliberate attack for next turn. I don't have high hopes, but fingers crossed nonetheless. I just hope his massed artillery doesn't crater my army.

In other news, check out what I found tucked away in the northeastern corner of India. Sneaky sneaky Andy..... hiding his massed bombers like this only further confirms to me that he is planning something big for this theater.






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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 12:39:36 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Thanks to my extensive recon I have a good idea of Andy's air force composition in India. He has about 1,150 bombers and 250 fighters. He would have more fighters but I have been cutting them down in large numbers with my sweeps.

I on the other hand have about a similar number of fighters but only 100 naval bombers in the theater. I can fairly easily surge in several hundred more fighters but my bombers are currently busy in the Soviet Union and frankly I don't think I even have enough air support to cater to them in India anyways. In other words, it's going to be a defensive war for the Japanese in the air here.

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 12:51:02 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

December 26-28, 1942

I finally caught up to Andy's Soviet army in the north and I have ordered a deliberate attack for next turn. I don't have high hopes, but fingers crossed nonetheless. I just hope his massed artillery doesn't crater my army.

In other news, check out what I found tucked away in the northeastern corner of India. Sneaky sneaky Andy..... hiding his massed bombers like this only further confirms to me that he is planning something big for this theater.







It can also be a defensive move. There they are safe from naval bombardment. It might be also further away from your air force than would be Karachi. Plus there is the question of where he has his aviation support. Spreading out his assets is just good prudence and if he has a shortage of aviation support, best to warehouse the surplus airframes on an inactive airfield.

Alfred

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:03:15 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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That's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much bombing in India though and with the influx of large numbers of Allied LCUs into the subcontinent my gut tells me something is coming. Given the loss of his carriers and the bad defensive terrain here, it also makes sense for him to focus on India for offensive operations. I guess we shall find out soon enough.

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:19:55 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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My understanding of that concentration is that he wants to keep them safe for the time being while he organizes an offensive.

Once he's ready, he brings them forward and unleashes them.

Given the fact you are committed in URSS, he will be able to push relatively quickly if he has a huge mass of bombers.

If he presses south of Delhi in the open ground, it's gonna be very complex for you. He advances quickly and there aren't many options for you to stop him.

I've had the whole India, but when the allied counterattacked landing in Karachi, I started developing Jalgaon, which is in good terrain, well connected to railways and can reach lvl9. Mostly, it cannot be bombed from the sea (but I guess this is not an issue here).
For the eventual Delhi axis of advance, I fortified the best I could Cawnpore, where I planned to leave behind a group of heroes to gain time. I intensively used the Thai army for Karachi defence, so, sadly, I hadn't them ready to be sacrified (it was April 44, so they would have gone soon anyway, here you're at a much earlier time).


If he advances on the plains, there isn't much you can do without fighter cover. If bombers are out of question, I would at least start bringing in the theater fighters of various kind so that you can at least contest the skies. Once he gets a strong air superiority and has enough bombers, the plains become a bloodbath. For you.
I would also bring many AA units in the area. With "many" I mean like 25-35 LCUs. The supply consumption is not that crippling, given that you have a very decent production in situ and I would bet you won't need them anytime soon in, for example, Onshu.
Last, but not least, I think that slowing him down can be feasible, should he rush through the plains but you need at least the fighter force to ensure you pose a threat.


Again: you're in a much earlier stage of the game than I've been, but that's my reading of the situation.


PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 3/2/2021 1:24:10 PM >


_____________________________

Francesco

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:31:56 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:39:15 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.



Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.

_____________________________

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:43:20 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.



Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.


He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:44:56 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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December 29, 1942

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?






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< Message edited by DesertWolf101 -- 3/2/2021 7:38:54 PM >

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:57:04 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
In other news, check out what I found tucked away in the northeastern corner of India. Sneaky sneaky Andy..... hiding his massed bombers like this only further confirms to me that he is planning something big for this theater.

This looks like serious over-stacking. Do a night bombing run

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?

When there is a lot of units involved it is less about the rolls (they are individual and average out) and more about the total forces. I hope you have enough to withstand the retaliatory attack, your attacked units must've high disruption now

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RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 1:58:02 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

That's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much bombing in India though and with the influx of large numbers of Allied LCUs into the subcontinent my gut tells me something is coming. Given the loss of his carriers and the bad defensive terrain here, it also makes sense for him to focus on India for offensive operations. I guess we shall find out soon enough.


I don't believe one has to be a seer to predict that at some stage an Allied counter attack in India will be forthcoming.

The way to overcome the advantage of interior lines is to launch many attacks simultaneously. A counter attack in India should be accompanied by Allied attacks elsewhere. Anywhere Allied aircraft can participate should be prime candidates for counterattacks. Hence Australia, the Aleutians should be included. Even Samoa/Fiji and New Guinea would be candidates depending on where the Allied airfields are.

If your opponent is planning on counter attacking only in India, that would be a strategic mistake. He won't know beforehand if you plan to defend your Indian conquests of intend to trade space for time. If the latter, an oversized Allied presence in India will not achieve that much strategically. A return to the Burma border after 6 months (or more) results in only a marginal strategic improvement for the Allies.

On the other hand, multiple attack vectors promises the chance to reinforce the more worthwhile strategic objective. Hence the Allies should only concentrate enough assets in India to pin the enemy down but retain assets for other vectors.

Alfred

(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 950
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 2:01:42 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
Let me rephrase what I wrote earlier. I had a doubt, as it’s « common forum knowledge » that non-Soviet air groups may not be used from a Soviet base, the planes being interned, but I have never seen tests being conducted, so I did a short one a week or two ago.

Non-Soviet air groups may not be transferred to a Soviet base, even if reassigned to Soviet Command HQ, whether the Soviets are active or not (and it doesn’t matter if the Soviets are activated in-game or in the scenario setup).

However, that short test showed me that air groups in a Soviet base (in the case of my test, a B-17 group in Vladivostok) could conduct missions (namely, Airfield targeted to Shikuka), whether they’re assigned to Soviet Far East Command or not, and whether the Soviets are active from the start or activated in-game is irrelevant.

The problem is actually getting the air groups in a Soviet base. I did not check what happens when you bring an air group through a Transport TF, but my test B-17 group could not transfer from Vlad to any other Soviet air base, only the Chinese bases.

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 951
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 2:05:12 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.



Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.


He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.

(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 952
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 2:13:20 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?

When there is a lot of units involved it is less about the rolls (they are individual and average out) and more about the total forces. I hope you have enough to withstand the retaliatory attack, your attacked units must've high disruption now

It is actually not as bad for a good defensive terrain with that much guns on defense. Supply problems might have applied to a lot of his units.

You did get a very bad adjusted AV, but your losses are only really higher for the disabled squads, and for vehicles (but always hard to tell whether you lost Motorized Support or an AFV) ; all other categories show basically equal losses, given the total numbers. Maybe more severe losses for the Soviets, as they were far less numerous.


EDIT : sorry for the triple post...

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 953
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 2:45:52 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.



Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.


He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.



There is Wasu itself: he can transfer air groups from India to URSS, even fighters. Then, it's just a matter of few turns to have them operating from a base conquered from Vladivostock pocket. I think he can use P38s groups in order to bring fighters in and then convert them back to something else. I should check the distances, though because I'm not sure about the P38 transfer.



Regarding your test. I did it with non-activated soviets and couldn't move any air unit there, even if they were under URSS HQ. "Group cannot transfer due to weather or location being unreachable!".

Edit. Maybe i misunderstood your post. Do you mean that you have transferred air groups there or what? What you wrote seems contradictory but for sure I've understood something

< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 3/2/2021 2:51:21 PM >


_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 954
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 3:23:02 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.



Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.


He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.



There is Wasu itself: he can transfer air groups from India to URSS, even fighters. Then, it's just a matter of few turns to have them operating from a base conquered from Vladivostock pocket. I think he can use P38s groups in order to bring fighters in and then convert them back to something else. I should check the distances, though because I'm not sure about the P38 transfer.



Regarding your test. I did it with non-activated soviets and couldn't move any air unit there, even if they were under URSS HQ. "Group cannot transfer due to weather or location being unreachable!".

Edit. Maybe i misunderstood your post. Do you mean that you have transferred air groups there or what? What you wrote seems contradictory but for sure I've understood something

I did a test by putting a B-17 group in Vladivostok. I put others in Chinese bases. The groups in China couldn’t transfer to Soviet bases ; the group in Vlad could only transfer out to Chinese bases (or other non-Soviet bases in range). All Soviet bases gave the same answer as you.
The B-17 group in Vlad could not conduct bombing missions (I haven’t tested patrols) before activation, but could do it post-activation (or from start when I set the Soviet as active in the test scenario).

I am pretty sure, but haven’t tested it, that planes in Wasu cannot reach Alma-Ata, and vice versa, as planes move from off-map to on-map bases only through railroads.

EDIT : in other words, P-38 squadrons have the range to reach Wasu, but couldn’t transfer to other Soviet bases, whether off-map or on-map, and would still have around 50 hexes to cross to reach Yenki or Rashin.

< Message edited by Ambassador -- 3/2/2021 3:25:06 PM >

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 955
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 6:28:48 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1445
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

That's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much bombing in India though and with the influx of large numbers of Allied LCUs into the subcontinent my gut tells me something is coming. Given the loss of his carriers and the bad defensive terrain here, it also makes sense for him to focus on India for offensive operations. I guess we shall find out soon enough.


I don't believe one has to be a seer to predict that at some stage an Allied counter attack in India will be forthcoming.

The way to overcome the advantage of interior lines is to launch many attacks simultaneously. A counter attack in India should be accompanied by Allied attacks elsewhere. Anywhere Allied aircraft can participate should be prime candidates for counterattacks. Hence Australia, the Aleutians should be included. Even Samoa/Fiji and New Guinea would be candidates depending on where the Allied airfields are.

If your opponent is planning on counter attacking only in India, that would be a strategic mistake. He won't know beforehand if you plan to defend your Indian conquests of intend to trade space for time. If the latter, an oversized Allied presence in India will not achieve that much strategically. A return to the Burma border after 6 months (or more) results in only a marginal strategic improvement for the Allies.

On the other hand, multiple attack vectors promises the chance to reinforce the more worthwhile strategic objective. Hence the Allies should only concentrate enough assets in India to pin the enemy down but retain assets for other vectors.

Alfred


I am definitely not taking any chances and I am keeping a close eye on other potential theaters where he could make his moves. Thus far though, I haven't seen any signals to indicate that he is planning offensives aside from India. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence though so I remain wary.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 956
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 6:30:55 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1445
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Ladies and gentlemen, I present you with a picture of carnage. It's bad, but could have been worse I think. Is it just me or did I get a bad roll here too?

When there is a lot of units involved it is less about the rolls (they are individual and average out) and more about the total forces. I hope you have enough to withstand the retaliatory attack, your attacked units must've high disruption now

It is actually not as bad for a good defensive terrain with that much guns on defense. Supply problems might have applied to a lot of his units.

You did get a very bad adjusted AV, but your losses are only really higher for the disabled squads, and for vehicles (but always hard to tell whether you lost Motorized Support or an AFV) ; all other categories show basically equal losses, given the total numbers. Maybe more severe losses for the Soviets, as they were far less numerous.


EDIT : sorry for the triple post...


The questions that I have is whether to bother continuing the attacks here. It would be nice to retreat his force but that would require multiple attacks and I am not sure that is wise.

All good on the multiple posts -

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 957
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 6:35:36 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

PS.
I am almost completely unaware of the mechanisms regarding soviets, but can't it be that he plans to conquer a base with soviets and bring the air assets there from India?

Allied air groups which are not Soviet may not be used from Soviet-nationality bases (i.e. the starting Soviet bases). If Soviet troops conquer another base, other Allied nations may base their air groups from there.

However, the Manchu or Korean bases closest to Vladivostok’s pocket are 72 hexes distant from Delhi or Rawalpindi. A transfer would depend on intervening Chinese bases.



Can't he reach Wasu-Kashgar area coming from offmap? On the latter in theory he can even paradrom from India.


He can. I am not as concerned over this now as I am concerned about it as a move in the future. He needs every Soviet LCU in the Irkutsk sector so he doesn't have enough to overcome my defenses in the Wasu-Kashgar area right now.

He would still have a long way to cross to go to Rashin or Yenki. There aren’t that many interesting targets around Wasu.



There is Wasu itself: he can transfer air groups from India to URSS, even fighters. Then, it's just a matter of few turns to have them operating from a base conquered from Vladivostock pocket. I think he can use P38s groups in order to bring fighters in and then convert them back to something else. I should check the distances, though because I'm not sure about the P38 transfer.



Regarding your test. I did it with non-activated soviets and couldn't move any air unit there, even if they were under URSS HQ. "Group cannot transfer due to weather or location being unreachable!".

Edit. Maybe i misunderstood your post. Do you mean that you have transferred air groups there or what? What you wrote seems contradictory but for sure I've understood something

I did a test by putting a B-17 group in Vladivostok. I put others in Chinese bases. The groups in China couldn’t transfer to Soviet bases ; the group in Vlad could only transfer out to Chinese bases (or other non-Soviet bases in range). All Soviet bases gave the same answer as you.
The B-17 group in Vlad could not conduct bombing missions (I haven’t tested patrols) before activation, but could do it post-activation (or from start when I set the Soviet as active in the test scenario).

I am pretty sure, but haven’t tested it, that planes in Wasu cannot reach Alma-Ata, and vice versa, as planes move from off-map to on-map bases only through railroads.

EDIT : in other words, P-38 squadrons have the range to reach Wasu, but couldn’t transfer to other Soviet bases, whether off-map or on-map, and would still have around 50 hexes to cross to reach Yenki or Rashin.



Damn, now I got what you meant. I understood you somehow moved a B17 group there during the test.

So, if he cannot rail the groups offmap and then inmap again, I guess he cannot move other than bombers from India.



Personally I would bet my head on an imminent offensive in India. I was just speculating about other possibilities.

_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 958
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 7:45:42 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1445
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline
December 30, 1942

Japanese destroyers sink a Soviet submarine as they attempt to clear the waters in front of Vladivostok.

Andy is pulling back his army near Irkutsk. I will follow and entrench in the next hex over if he stands his ground there as he likely will. This is the ideal place for me to hold the line. I think I only really need two hexes here (98,16 and 99,16) but I will also place some troops on 97,17 as added security. If there is any position to weather the future Soviet assaults I think this is it!






Attachment (1)

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 959
RE: Empire of the Sun - 3/2/2021 9:14:19 PM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline
It looks like you lost almost the same percentage of forces committed since you out numbered him 2-1 in troops and you lost just over 2-1. The minus supply is good sign.

(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 960
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