Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmeckman

I like many others on the forum am drawn to games like WitE2 by the attention to detail and the effort put into developing realistic algorithms to represent complex issues like logistics. In a recent post, I pointed out a possible discrepancy related to the railyards in both WitE2 and WitW. The original intention in both games was that each railyard “factory” in a city represents a capability to move 5000 tons per week by rail, roughly corresponding to an ability to send out one loaded train per day. (This baseline is increased at a NSS.) However, the code for both games is currently allocating 10000 tons/week for each railyard factory rather than 5000 tons/week. One example can be seen in section 6.4.6 of the WitE2 manual, where Minsk is shown as having 6 railyard factories. The intended capacity of its railyards is shown as 30000 tons/week (6 * 5000), but they are actually providing 60000 tons/week (6 * 10000) for player use. Oddly, the description of the hex pop-up in section 6.4 does not explain these railyard numbers.

This apparent doubling of the rolling stock available to both sides raised alarm bells for me, since it could have wide-ranging effects in both WitE2 and WitW. These forums often quote the maxim that amateurs study tactics but professionals study logistics, and this issue seems to be a good fit. Yet, the response I’ve received so far in bringing this up has been fairly indifferent. I still haven’t seen any feedback on whether this doubling of railyard capacity was done deliberately to better match the actual rolling stock available in the war or is a coding bug that is being worked on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Hi remeckman, obviously I'm just as much in the dark as you are but this is the way I see it.

The abstracted assumption in WITW/WITE2 is that each railway runs in both directions and that each railyard has equal loading/unloading capacity in either direction.

The lower number is the amount that can be loaded/unloaded on one line. The higher number is the one that can be received when you add in the other direction. That's why it is double.

So as an example of what I mean using a hypothetical situation with abstracted numbers...

You are 4 weeks into an invasion of somewhere. You started off with a railyard with the capacity to load/unload 5 trains a week (RY1) and you've now set up a railyard that can do the same for 2 trains (RY2) in each direction and three 'frontline' railyards (RY3s) that can unload/load a train each in either direction. If you follow the logic of WITW/WITE2 that capacity gives you 10 trains to use, for the sake of this example all of which are at RY1 (if you want to visualise that starting situation I guess you would have 5 trains at the outbound platform being loaded and the remaining 5 in sidings).

So T1 you send a full train each to the RY3s and 2 full trains to RY2. You still have 5 trains ready to go at RY1.

T2 the 5 now empty trains have come back to RY1 and you send the 5 remaining now full trains from there to each of the subsidiary rail yards.

T3 you basically repeat the process - five trains in RY1 go out full, 5 others come back empty. At the end of it in total there are 3 trains left empty at the RY3s waiting to come back next turn.

But on T4 things start going wrong. You've underestimated the enemy and are facing a counter-attack that is threatening the freight you have stored in the RY3s. So rather than sending their trains back empty you want to fill them up. Ideally you'd retrieve and unload all of that freight closer to the front but there isn't enough 'reverse' unloading capacity to manage it and so two trains unload at RY2 and the other goes on through to RY1. At the same time you send two full trains forward from RY1 to RY2 to help shore up the defence.

The result of all of that? RY2 ends up with 4 trains unloading at a station where it only has capacity to load 2 in either direction. An additional train had to pass through on to RY1 in the rear because there wasn't capacity to unload it closer to the front.

So that is potentially a common sense explanation for what you are seeing displayed. Whether the game works that way I've no idea to be honest. You are either waiting for an answer from the devs or you need to create a test scenario in WITW where you try and replicate the above. I'm not sure it would be very easy to test in the normal scenarios given all the different 'exterior' rail lines/railyards that have the potential to confound the test.

If that is indeed the general model that is being used, one thing I've noticed from playing around with WITW is that if you load a CU at a railyard it will use outbound capacity (i.e. reduce the lower number) at that railyard but doesn't seem to reduce either of the numbers if you then unload at a different railyard nearby.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

Hi remeckman, obviously I'm just as much in the dark as you are but this is the way I see it.

The abstracted assumption in WITW/WITE2 is that each railway runs in both directions and that each railyard has equal loading/unloading capacity in either direction.

The lower number is the amount that can be loaded/unloaded on one line. The higher number is the one that can be received when you add in the other direction. That's why it is double.

So as an example of what I mean using a hypothetical situation with abstracted numbers...

You are 4 weeks into an invasion of somewhere. You started off with a railyard with the capacity to load/unload 5 trains a week (RY1) and you've now set up a railyard that can do the same for 2 trains (RY2) in each direction and three 'frontline' railyards (RY3s) that can unload/load a train each in either direction. If you follow the logic of WITW/WITE2 that capacity gives you 10 trains to use, for the sake of this example all of which are at RY1 (if you want to visualise that starting situation I guess you would have 5 trains at the outbound platform being loaded and the remaining 5 in sidings).

So T1 you send a full train each to the RY3s and 2 full trains to RY2. You still have 5 trains ready to go at RY1.

T2 the 5 now empty trains have come back to RY1 and you send the 5 remaining now full trains from there to each of the subsidiary rail yards.

T3 you basically repeat the process - five trains in RY1 go out full, 5 others come back empty. At the end of it in total there are 3 trains left empty at the RY3s waiting to come back next turn.

But on T4 things start going wrong. You've underestimated the enemy and are facing a counter-attack that is threatening the freight you have stored in the RY3s. So rather than sending their trains back empty you want to fill them up. Ideally you'd retrieve and unload all of that freight closer to the front but there isn't enough 'reverse' unloading capacity to manage it and so two trains unload at RY2 and the other goes on through to RY1. At the same time you send two full trains forward from RY1 to RY2 to help shore up the defence.

The result of all of that? RY2 ends up with 4 trains unloading at a station where it only has capacity to load 2 in either direction. An additional train had to pass through on to RY1 in the rear because there wasn't capacity to unload it closer to the front.

So that is potentially a common sense explanation for what you are seeing displayed. Whether the game works that way I've no idea to be honest. You are either waiting for an answer from the devs or you need to create a test scenario in WITW where you try and replicate the above. I'm not sure it would be very easy to test in the normal scenarios given all the different 'exterior' rail lines/railyards that have the potential to confound the test.

If that is indeed the general model that is being used, one thing I've noticed from playing around with WITW is that if you load a CU at a railyard it will use outbound capacity (i.e. reduce the lower number) at that railyard but doesn't seem to reduce either of the numbers if you then unload at a different railyard nearby.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

The abstracted assumption in WITW/WITE2 is that each railway runs in both directions and that each railyard has equal loading/unloading capacity in either direction.

The lower number is the amount that can be loaded/unloaded on one line. The higher number is the one that can be received when you add in the other direction. That's why it is double.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

You are 4 weeks into an invasion of somewhere. You started off with a railyard with the capacity to load/unload 5 trains a week (RY1) and you've now set up a railyard that can do the same for 2 trains (RY2) in each direction and three 'frontline' railyards (RY3s) that can unload/load a train each in either direction. If you follow the logic of WITW/WITE2 that capacity gives you 10 trains to use, for the sake of this example all of which are at RY1 (if you want to visualise that starting situation I guess you would have 5 trains at the outbound platform being loaded and the remaining 5 in sidings).

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Now for freight its a bit less clear. Not least as this is all conducted in the logistics phase and you see none of it actually done.

Now in theory every ton of freight has up to 200 SMP and moves as above, the obscure bit is where does its SMP come from and how does congestion influence the outcomes.

Ok, it gets its SMP from level 2 or higher rail yards - in this context think of these as representing rolling stock etc. A given bit of freight will try to grab rail capacity from as near as possible (up to 30 hexes away). The detail on this is in 25.4 of the manual (there maybe a quiz later when that is released).

But ... you can neither estimate this nor influence what goes on. You could in theory take a single hex on the map and add up all the level #2 railyards in 30 hexes (along rails), but the problem is (especially for the distant railyards) is that they are providing rolling stock to more than just your chosen hex.

Now its worth remembering that not every bit of freight uses its notional 200 SMP, it will use what it needs to get where its going. The balance is then released back into the system and can be used by a new piece of freight.

So to come back to the practicalities, every ton of freight gets its 200 SMP, but after some time the local rolling stock is fully allocated (the equivalent of running out of load to move your combat units). As it moves it lays down usage on the rail net and as this increases so does the cost - or in other words a later ton of freight can't move as far. In the end you run out of rail capacity to push freight down a given line.