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Okhas - 3/7/2021 8:55:44 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Hi!

There have been different answers about which skill is needed for Okha attacks. I have found as many people saying it's navbomb as well as lownav.

So what is it? I always remembered lownav because I thought it would be strange and navbomb would model it better.

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RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 9:42:40 AM   
Evoken

 

Posts: 488
Joined: 10/23/2019
Status: offline 		I will make a test scenario and put the results

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 2
RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 9:51:23 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken

I will make a test scenario and put the results


that's great, thanks!

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Post #: 3
RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 10:04:23 AM   
Evoken

 

Posts: 488
Joined: 10/23/2019
Status: offline 		It appears they can use both skills , if you put them on 1k feet naval attack mission they gain lowN , if you put them to anything above 1k they gain navalB skill
here is the link for the test if anyone else wants to take a look
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tYhvpqQH0eZ9Uo6PIQnZKrp7IrqkkYUv/view?usp=sharing

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 4
RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 12:33:16 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		Okha is a device, and is not a torppdo. So it is NavB/LowN. The mission and the altitude determine the skill, with a special case for the torpedoes. I never tried it, but I’d expect an AF/Port/ground strike with Okhas to use GrdB/LowB, accordingly.

(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 5
RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 2:51:41 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Okha is a device, and is not a torppdo. So it is NavB/LowN. The mission and the altitude determine the skill, with a special case for the torpedoes. I never tried it, but I’d expect an AF/Port/ground strike with Okhas to use GrdB/LowB, accordingly.

Never heard of anyone using the Okha to attack ground targets so I don't know if the game models that. Isn't the Okha unit a unit of Betties or other bombers that carry the Okha - meaning the pilots are for the carrying aircraft, not the Okha itself. The Okha pilot would be modeled in the device accuracy and not changeable in the game?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 6
RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 4:37:24 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Okha is a device, and is not a torppdo. So it is NavB/LowN. The mission and the altitude determine the skill, with a special case for the torpedoes. I never tried it, but I’d expect an AF/Port/ground strike with Okhas to use GrdB/LowB, accordingly.

Never heard of anyone using the Okha to attack ground targets so I don't know if the game models that. Isn't the Okha unit a unit of Betties or other bombers that carry the Okha - meaning the pilots are for the carrying aircraft, not the Okha itself. The Okha pilot would be modeled in the device accuracy and not changeable in the game?

Yes, that’s it. Why I said it was a device. You don’t need any pilot for the Okhas proper, only for the Betties.

I have only once played a Japan game so far as to have them, and I didn’t even use them, I think.

Okhas have an off-map production rate, which is not that great IIRC, so it would be a waste to use them on ground attacks (if at all possible).

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Post #: 7
RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 7:17:05 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Okha is a device, and is not a torppdo. So it is NavB/LowN. The mission and the altitude determine the skill, with a special case for the torpedoes. I never tried it, but I’d expect an AF/Port/ground strike with Okhas to use GrdB/LowB, accordingly.

Never heard of anyone using the Okha to attack ground targets so I don't know if the game models that. Isn't the Okha unit a unit of Betties or other bombers that carry the Okha - meaning the pilots are for the carrying aircraft, not the Okha itself. The Okha pilot would be modeled in the device accuracy and not changeable in the game?

Yes, that’s it. Why I said it was a device. You don’t need any pilot for the Okhas proper, only for the Betties.

I have only once played a Japan game so far as to have them, and I didn’t even use them, I think.

Okhas have an off-map production rate, which is not that great IIRC, so it would be a waste to use them on ground attacks (if at all possible).

Then the attack profile of the Okha - specifically the release altitude - is what should drive the choice whether to train NavB or LowN.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 8
RE: Okhas - 3/7/2021 9:10:41 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Okha is a device, and is not a torppdo. So it is NavB/LowN. The mission and the altitude determine the skill, with a special case for the torpedoes. I never tried it, but I’d expect an AF/Port/ground strike with Okhas to use GrdB/LowB, accordingly.

Never heard of anyone using the Okha to attack ground targets so I don't know if the game models that. Isn't the Okha unit a unit of Betties or other bombers that carry the Okha - meaning the pilots are for the carrying aircraft, not the Okha itself. The Okha pilot would be modeled in the device accuracy and not changeable in the game?

Yes, that’s it. Why I said it was a device. You don’t need any pilot for the Okhas proper, only for the Betties.

I have only once played a Japan game so far as to have them, and I didn’t even use them, I think.

Okhas have an off-map production rate, which is not that great IIRC, so it would be a waste to use them on ground attacks (if at all possible).

Then the attack profile of the Okha - specifically the release altitude - is what should drive the choice whether to train NavB or LowN.

I made a quick test with a Guadalcanal scenario, adding a G4M2e-equipped squadron at Rabaul (and setting all data fields right, from availability date, to pool, to « can build », etc).

Airfield attacks on Port Moresby were conducted with 4x250kg bombs, rather than Ohka.
To check, I conducted naval strikes on USN TF, and the planes attacked with the Ohka (but missed, even the CVs). All misses, with around 40 missiles.

Then, I saw that the squadron’s NavB was untrained, hardly in the 40s despite a general XP above 80. So, I did the test again, out of curiosity, assigning regular G4M to the squadron before upgrading them to G4M2e, giving NavB in the 80s.

Medium-altitude attacks (15k ft) continued the misses.
Low-altitude (1000ft) caused a few hits, but not that many (3 out of 22, and this is with elite pilots).

Ulterior attacks would lead to similar hit rates (from 15-20% against warships, around 30-40% against transports and auxiliaries).

So, the Ohka is not used for ground or airfield attacks but are replaced by medium bombs (I haven’t tested Port attacks, though), but anyway, they’re only useful on low altitude naval attacks (so, no need to train NavB, only LowN).

EDIT: absolutely no pretense at scientific validity with that test, I only ran a dozen turns. But the medium-altitude attacks consistently missed, while low-altitude attacks had a decent number of hits. This runs a bit counter-intuitively with the way one would imagine the Ohka being used,

< Message edited by Ambassador -- 3/7/2021 9:20:49 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Okhas - 3/8/2021 8:43:59 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1445
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline 		This is good to know. The test begs the question, is there any advantage in using Okhas versus good old fashioned torpedo runs? Is the Betty any less vulnerable to flak when attacking with Okhas?

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Post #: 10
RE: Okhas - 3/8/2021 8:52:07 AM   
Evoken

 

Posts: 488
Joined: 10/23/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

This is good to know. The test begs the question, is there any advantage in using Okhas versus good old fashioned torpedo runs? Is the Betty any less vulnerable to flak when attacking with Okhas?

In my tests betties didnt even take flak damage against 6 BB's in late 44 and Ohkas penetrated belt armour of that said BB's meanwhile torpedo betties would have been slaughtered alone by flak

(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 11
RE: Okhas - 3/8/2021 12:10:27 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

This is good to know. The test begs the question, is there any advantage in using Okhas versus good old fashioned torpedo runs? Is the Betty any less vulnerable to flak when attacking with Okhas?

In my tests betties didnt even take flak damage against 6 BB's in late 44 and Ohkas penetrated belt armour of that said BB's meanwhile torpedo betties would have been slaughtered alone by flak

Same results for me, which is normal, given the range of the weapon.

However, I would think the major risk for slow planes (the G4M2e is 20 mph slower than the other versions) would be the CAP, especially the Hellcat/Corsair CAP of late war (or, even worse, Bearcats). You need to have slow enough Fighters to escort them.

I wonder if night attacks wouldn’t be the best choice. Even with NF, night CAP is not terribly effective IMO, as it’s usually not as numerous as day CAP.

(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 12
RE: Okhas - 3/8/2021 4:32:37 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

This is good to know. The test begs the question, is there any advantage in using Okhas versus good old fashioned torpedo runs? Is the Betty any less vulnerable to flak when attacking with Okhas?

In my tests betties didnt even take flak damage against 6 BB's in late 44 and Ohkas penetrated belt armour of that said BB's meanwhile torpedo betties would have been slaughtered alone by flak


that's hardcoded, Betties launching Okhas are not in range of flak

what strikes me a bit is the result of lownav vs navbomb but it confirms what I had in mind. The Betties launching Okhas should also have a hardcoded release/attack alt as it's not meant to launch an Okha from 1000 ft, most likely impossible to hit something then considering the way they were meant to work. In the game lownav gets a way higher accuracy in the end and therefor lownav also seems the way to go with Okhas.

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Post #: 13
RE: Okhas - 3/8/2021 4:34:34 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Evoken


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

This is good to know. The test begs the question, is there any advantage in using Okhas versus good old fashioned torpedo runs? Is the Betty any less vulnerable to flak when attacking with Okhas?

In my tests betties didnt even take flak damage against 6 BB's in late 44 and Ohkas penetrated belt armour of that said BB's meanwhile torpedo betties would have been slaughtered alone by flak

Same results for me, which is normal, given the range of the weapon.

However, I would think the major risk for slow planes (the G4M2e is 20 mph slower than the other versions) would be the CAP, especially the Hellcat/Corsair CAP of late war (or, even worse, Bearcats). You need to have slow enough Fighters to escort them.

I wonder if night attacks wouldn’t be the best choice. Even with NF, night CAP is not terribly effective IMO, as it’s usually not as numerous as day CAP.


You can use the fastest fighters you have for escort, doesn't matter at all. If anyone comes around with the coordination stuff:

Night air attacks work, but only if you have really high numbers and that's hard to achieve, even more so if we are talking about Okha strikes. Pretty much impossible in the game (thank god).

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Post #: 14
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