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OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d'existence

 
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OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d'exi... - 3/8/2021 11:49:19 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2021/02/23/the-us-air-force-just-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighter-has-failed/?sh=3fd53c7a1b16

"Meat on the table"...told you so.
Post #: 1
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/8/2021 11:57:40 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Are we even sure it can actually replace the F-18?

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Post #: 2
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 12:05:59 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		In any case, what does that have to do with the price of raisins and etcetera?

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Post #: 3
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 12:08:33 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The concept changed, that is all.

Hagel an Lauri Torni, a man who was awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class for his work with the SS in World War II who is buried in Arlington National cemetery.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 4:13:30 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I continue not to understand Rusty's rabid obsession with the F-35 being bad (allegedly).

My understanding of it was... it was never going to replace the F-16? Like, they fill entirely different roles.

The F-15 (or F-18) would be another matter, as air superiority craft. But I still think it's fairly obvious that this obsession is off point.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 5
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 6:21:13 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1445
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline 		Not quite Lokasenna, the F-35 is a long story so obviously a lot of shifts have occurred through its development career, but even going back to the initial JAST program it was supposed to replace large numbers of U.S. and allied multirole and strike fighter types including the F-16, F/A-18, A-10, Harrier/AV-8, and the F-117. Now the last two of those types have already been retired so you can see how things have evolved over time, but the F-35 since its inception designed to replace the bulk of fighter type roles except for the air superiority role which remained with the F-15/F-22.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 6
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 6:52:30 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Not quite Lokasenna, the F-35 is a long story so obviously a lot of shifts have occurred through its development career, but even going back to the initial JAST program it was supposed to replace large numbers of U.S. and allied multirole and strike fighter types including the F-16, F/A-18, A-10, Harrier/AV-8, and the F-117. Now the last two of those types have already been retired so you can see how things have evolved over time, but the F-35 since its inception designed to replace the bulk of fighter type roles except for the air superiority role which remained with the F-15/F-22.


So I had it flipped. The point stands that saying "The F-35 can't replace the F-15 and F-16 means it's bad!!1!!eleven!!" The F-15 and F-16 don't fulfill the same function at all.

(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 7
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 12:14:19 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I continue not to understand Rusty's rabid obsession with the F-35 being bad (allegedly).

My understanding of it was... it was never going to replace the F-16? Like, they fill entirely different roles.

The F-15 (or F-18) would be another matter, as air superiority craft. But I still think it's fairly obvious that this obsession is off point.




It was sold to Congress as THE replacement for the F16 and F15. That obviously was false.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 8
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 1:21:12 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I continue not to understand Rusty's rabid obsession with the F-35 being bad (allegedly).

My understanding of it was... it was never going to replace the F-16? Like, they fill entirely different roles.

The F-15 (or F-18) would be another matter, as air superiority craft. But I still think it's fairly obvious that this obsession is off point.


I think that I understand. Anything that the US does is bad, anything that the opponents of the US does is good.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 9
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 2:09:04 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline 		A fairly written article by a credible News Organization.

In essence the F35 suffered "scope / mission creep" and promised too much to too many interested buyers.

Certainly not the first time in western defense contracting.

Much the very same debate ( I am old ) as I recall between the MD F4 Phantom and the Vought F8 Crusader during Vietnam. The F4 was deemed to be the 'universal' air superiority jet but the Navy made a strong case with the F8 for Carriers and A7 Corsair for fighter bomber attacks.

The F4 was promoted - latter demonized - reputation rehabilitated.... etc

I am far from certain whether the F35 will eventually be judged a 'dud' or a 'success'. History will tell us in 10 + years. Canada for example has walked away - but that is far from any sort of concrete indication as our Military spending is highly politicized.


What is clearly missing from the 'scope of this discussion' is F35 verses "what" ??

Russian tech has proved incredibly suspect for the last 20 plus years; since the so called end of the cold war with somewhat better access to the truth - we find that despite American shortcomings - Russian shortcomings were larger.

I would argue in the closed system that is China the very same is more than likely true.


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Post #: 10
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 2:24:50 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

A fairly written article by a credible News Organization.

In essence the F35 suffered "scope / mission creep" and promised too much to too many interested buyers.

Certainly not the first time in western defense contracting.

Much the very same debate ( I am old ) as I recall between the MD F4 Phantom and the Vought F8 Crusader during Vietnam. The F4 was deemed to be the 'universal' air superiority jet but the Navy made a strong case with the F8 for Carriers and A7 Corsair for fighter bomber attacks.

The F4 was promoted - latter demonized - reputation rehabilitated.... etc

I am far from certain whether the F35 will eventually be judged a 'dud' or a 'success'. History will tell us in 10 + years. Canada for example has walked away - but that is far from any sort of concrete indication as our Military spending is highly politicized.


What is clearly missing from the 'scope of this discussion' is F35 verses "what" ??

Russian tech has proved incredibly suspect for the last 20 plus years; since the so called end of the cold war with somewhat better access to the truth - we find that despite American shortcomings - Russian shortcomings were larger.

I would argue in the closed system that is China the very same is more than likely true.



Considering Russia's difficulties with SU-57 and minimal military orders...I think their problems are bigger.

22 SU-57s by 2024...that is miniscule compared to F-35s produced so far in even limited initial production program.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 11
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 3:51:38 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

A fairly written article by a credible News Organization.

In essence the F35 suffered "scope / mission creep" and promised too much to too many interested buyers.

Certainly not the first time in western defense contracting.

Much the very same debate ( I am old ) as I recall between the MD F4 Phantom and the Vought F8 Crusader during Vietnam. The F4 was deemed to be the 'universal' air superiority jet but the Navy made a strong case with the F8 for Carriers and A7 Corsair for fighter bomber attacks.

The F4 was promoted - latter demonized - reputation rehabilitated.... etc

I am far from certain whether the F35 will eventually be judged a 'dud' or a 'success'. History will tell us in 10 + years. Canada for example has walked away - but that is far from any sort of concrete indication as our Military spending is highly politicized.


What is clearly missing from the 'scope of this discussion' is F35 verses "what" ??

Russian tech has proved incredibly suspect for the last 20 plus years; since the so called end of the cold war with somewhat better access to the truth - we find that despite American shortcomings - Russian shortcomings were larger.

I would argue in the closed system that is China the very same is more than likely true.


I'm not so sure about China following the Russian model of unreliable equipment. China bought into the Japanese/Korean model of producing excellent electronics and, according to Fareed Zacharia of CNN, they are ahead in Artificial Intelligence development. The US big advantage has been better avionics and EW systems on their aircraft. That is now in doubt, or soon will be.

The F-35 was supposed to leap ahead of that challenge but became too many things to do well in one aircraft. The price of competition in the arms race is just brutal.

_____________________________

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Post #: 12
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/9/2021 4:42:12 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1445
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline 		Rusty, The F-35 was never sold to Congress as a replacement for the F-15. It was sold to Congress (and the world) as a replacement for all the other aircraft I have mentioned though.

Look, this is hardly a new subject and I suspect this same debate will be had for many years to come. Unfortunately there is very little nuance to be found when it comes to the issue. David Axe for instance is a great writer with whom I have exchanged emails before on a DPRK issue (long story) but it's worth remembering that he has been on a crusade against the F-35 for more than a decade and I think that colors his outlook quite a bit. At the same time however, it is clear the the F-35's will never meet the extremely high standards and expectations set up for it since the start. This does NOT mean the F-35 is a 'bad' aircraft. It has very strong strengths but those are constrained by some key weaknesses. My view on this is that the F-35 is a relatively successful aircraft but a failed program. There are plenty of aircraft that were completely panned in the initial throes of their development only to become highly loved later on. I don't think the F-35 will ever be universally loved as a program but I can attest that it is loved by many who actually pilot it, and not just the ones set up for the marketing aspect of things.

I almost got to visit the F-35 production line in Texas when I was working on a contract with LM but that never worked out. I did get to see F-22s on the tarmac in Hawaii though and that's even better in my book!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 13
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/10/2021 2:00:08 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		Engineers can’t complete the Joint Simulation Environment facility. Taxpayers are paying a premium for the F-35 to be capable of defeating any adversary’s defense and anti-aircraft systems. The only way, short of war, to see if the F-35 can perform as promised is to simulate a modern threat environment. The contractor never delivered a functional simulation facility despite having had 14 years to do so, and the facility is still incomplete six years after the Navy was given the project.

10 will get you 20 if it could win in a simulation we'd have heard about it by now.



(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 14
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/10/2021 2:01:18 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		"Program officials continue to struggle against a tide of F-35 design flaws. Nearly every time the engineers solve one problem, a new one is discovered. The F-35 still has 871 unresolved deficiencies, only two fewer than last year. Ten of these are the more serious Category I deficiencies that “may cause death, severe injury, or severe occupational illness; may cause loss or major damage to a weapon system; critically restricts the combat readiness capabilities of the using organization."

Unresolved = Lemon. Like I said years ago..Mig 21 would destroy it in a VR fight.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 15
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/10/2021 2:02:29 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		"For years, one of the biggest weaknesses of the F-35 program has been the deeply flawed maintenance and spare parts computer network called the Autonomic Logistics Information System, known as ALIS. Pentagon leaders finally admitted defeat in 2020 and pulled the plug on ALIS. It will be replaced with the cloud-based Operational Data Integrated Network, but the report warns that program officials are repeating many of the same mistakes made with ALIS, which would saddle the troops on the maintenance line with another flawed product."

Where does one start?

Meat. On. The. Table.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/10/2021 11:36:41 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		The F-35 program I think we would all agree has been badly managed but that does not the F-35 is meat on the table. It does mean as mentioned in an earlier post that it was to do too many things. Sometimes it is cheaper to to have multiple specialized platforms than 1 trying to do everything. Procurement and program management in the military has been crud for decades, with huge cost over-runs and huge scope creep. And crazy long development cycles. As a result ambitious programs like the B-1, B-2, F-22 all got cut way back, and we will see that with the F-35 as well. I have always thought trying to replace the A-10 with the F-35 was a fools errand. But the generals like their shiny new toys, not the 'old' ones. When I was working I saw the same thing with some of our tech guys - they lost sight of the business requirement because they wanted to play with the coolest new software, hardware, and platforms (don't get me started on 'cloud computing'). Define a spec and stick to it. And then get it done in less than 15 years.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 17
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/10/2021 11:40:41 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		And then when you keep it simple and reliable it will last a long time. We still have the C-47/DC-3 from the 30's - almost 100 years old. B-52s and C-130s designed in the 50s, with the current B-52s built in the 60s and expected to serve until 2050, While the C-130s have been been continually improved I believe they are STILL being built.

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Post #: 18
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/11/2021 12:40:08 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none

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Post #: 19
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/11/2021 10:50:06 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

And then when you keep it simple and reliable it will last a long time. We still have the C-47/DC-3 from the 30's - almost 100 years old. B-52s and C-130s designed in the 50s, with the current B-52s built in the 60s and expected to serve until 2050, While the C-130s have been been continually improved I believe they are STILL being built.



B52s are not viable in today's environment. During the fascists' war against Yugoslavia a tad over 20 years ago they couldn't enter Yugo airspace. Hell, even the Stealth was vulnerable to the 2nd rate Yugo AD.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 20
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/11/2021 11:25:04 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

And then when you keep it simple and reliable it will last a long time. We still have the C-47/DC-3 from the 30's - almost 100 years old. B-52s and C-130s designed in the 50s, with the current B-52s built in the 60s and expected to serve until 2050, While the C-130s have been been continually improved I believe they are STILL being built.



B52s are not viable in today's environment. During the fascists' war against Yugoslavia a tad over 20 years ago they couldn't enter Yugo airspace. Hell, even the Stealth was vulnerable to the 2nd rate Yugo AD.


I did not know of any fascists' war against Yugoslavia a little over 20 years ago. Can you provide some information on this, please?

Hagel um Harry!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 21
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 1:57:40 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		61 - There was no Yugoslavia 20 years ago - the country had already broken up. Your comment tangentially supports my comments. One plane does not generally work well in all missions. The 52s punished Iraqi forces in the first Gulf war and IIRC none were lost in action. And it could be argued the Iraqi air defenses then were better than the Bosnian ones later on. But a different type of conflict. No concentrated targets in Bosnia, which IMO was the more likely reason the 52s were not used. Not much point in dropping 70,000 pounds of bombs on 5 guys (Bosnia), vs dropping the same on a brigade dug-in in the desert (Iraq) where it really hurts. In any event I am not sure what you think the solution is. IIRC an F-16 was lost in Bosnia, I'm not convinced an F-35 would have done any better. But when the generals who like shiny new toys and want to get rid of the B-1 and B-2 and keep the 52? They are either thinking critically or idiots. We can debate that over a drink.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 2:28:23 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		The F-117 lost in the Balkans was a fluke - the enemy knew an attack was happening and sprayed AAA into the air randomly, and got lucky. Not much you can do against that kind of luck.

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Post #: 23
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 3:04:35 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The F-117 lost in the Balkans was a fluke - the enemy knew an attack was happening and sprayed AAA into the air randomly, and got lucky. Not much you can do against that kind of luck.


The Golden BB . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 24
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 1:11:12 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

A fairly written article by a credible News Organization.

In essence the F35 suffered "scope / mission creep" and promised too much to too many interested buyers.

Certainly not the first time in western defense contracting.

Much the very same debate ( I am old ) as I recall between the MD F4 Phantom and the Vought F8 Crusader during Vietnam. The F4 was deemed to be the 'universal' air superiority jet but the Navy made a strong case with the F8 for Carriers and A7 Corsair for fighter bomber attacks.

The F4 was promoted - latter demonized - reputation rehabilitated.... etc

I am far from certain whether the F35 will eventually be judged a 'dud' or a 'success'. History will tell us in 10 + years. Canada for example has walked away - but that is far from any sort of concrete indication as our Military spending is highly politicized.


What is clearly missing from the 'scope of this discussion' is F35 verses "what" ??

Russian tech has proved incredibly suspect for the last 20 plus years; since the so called end of the cold war with somewhat better access to the truth - we find that despite American shortcomings - Russian shortcomings were larger.

I would argue in the closed system that is China the very same is more than likely true.



Considering Russia's difficulties with SU-57 and minimal military orders...I think their problems are bigger.

22 SU-57s by 2024...that is miniscule compared to F-35s produced so far in even limited initial production program.



That is how Ivan does things. They don't shoot their wad on a 1000+ planes that are hanger queens for decades.

WAD

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 25
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 1:34:04 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

A fairly written article by a credible News Organization.

In essence the F35 suffered "scope / mission creep" and promised too much to too many interested buyers.

Certainly not the first time in western defense contracting.

Much the very same debate ( I am old ) as I recall between the MD F4 Phantom and the Vought F8 Crusader during Vietnam. The F4 was deemed to be the 'universal' air superiority jet but the Navy made a strong case with the F8 for Carriers and A7 Corsair for fighter bomber attacks.

The F4 was promoted - latter demonized - reputation rehabilitated.... etc

I am far from certain whether the F35 will eventually be judged a 'dud' or a 'success'. History will tell us in 10 + years. Canada for example has walked away - but that is far from any sort of concrete indication as our Military spending is highly politicized.


What is clearly missing from the 'scope of this discussion' is F35 verses "what" ??

Russian tech has proved incredibly suspect for the last 20 plus years; since the so called end of the cold war with somewhat better access to the truth - we find that despite American shortcomings - Russian shortcomings were larger.

I would argue in the closed system that is China the very same is more than likely true.



Considering Russia's difficulties with SU-57 and minimal military orders...I think their problems are bigger.

22 SU-57s by 2024...that is miniscule compared to F-35s produced so far in even limited initial production program.



That is how Ivan does things. They don't shoot their wad on a 1000+ planes that are hanger queens for decades.

WAD


So says the voice from personal knowledge.



Hagel zum Harry

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 26
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 2:23:13 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Russian AF and planes are widely known about their reliability and easy maintenance...NOT.

Ask from any of export customers of Sukhoi.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 27
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 2:40:46 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Why do we need a pilot in the plane? Once you lose the pilot that's a ton of weight you can work with

_____________________________


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Post #: 28
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 2:42:50 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Why do we need a pilot in the plane? Once you lose the pilot that's a ton of weight you can work with

Cylons is the way to go.

Or maybe Skynet.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 29
RE: OT: F35 can't replace F16/F15 despite its raison d... - 3/12/2021 4:28:50 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Why do we need a pilot in the plane? Once you lose the pilot that's a ton of weight you can work with

Cylons is the way to go.

Or maybe Skynet.


Cylons looked quite heavy though.

_____________________________


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Post #: 30
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