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China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 7:33:43 AM

Phoenix100

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So I finished both Andymac's little training scenarios - Wake and Burma - I've done TMW a few times, done Coral Sea a few times, got half way through Guadalcanal a few times and I don't want the little stuff anymore, I want the full thing. So I've started scenario 6 - Full Campaign from Dec 8, as modded by Andymac, as Allies, against the AI - and it is, of course, utterly bewildering to be confronted with just so much, and no directions at all.....But that's the beauty of it, right?

I thought I would start with China, since it seems to be being invaded. Can anyone point me anywhere where I might get some tips (directions...) as to how to conduct the Chinese land war against Japan? Is there a helpful document or video somewhere dealing with China. Have searched and can't find, if it exists. Thanks!

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 7:51:35 AM

Ambassador

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Quiet China scenarios don�t have scripts for the AI to do anything in China. If you want to learn to wage war there, you should pick another scenario.

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 8:12:38 AM

Phoenix100

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Is Scenario 6 a 'Quiet China' scenario? In my game the 3 scenarios entitled 'Quiet China' are 7, 8 and 9, none of them updated or modded by AndyMac, which is why I picked scenario 6, which I thought was the full campaign starting on day 2 (Dec 8)? Am I wrong?

< Message edited by Phoenix100 -- 3/12/2021 8:13:08 AM >

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 8:34:21 AM

Ambassador

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I�ve read your post too quickly. I saw the words scenario and China, and inferred you had taken the Quiet China scenario. I�ve had a discussion about it with a friend a day or two ago. So, ok, never mind.

I�ll come back later, but there are many threads discussing combat in China. But here are a couple of advices.

Basically, things you want to keep an eye on are :
- supply
- terrain - the ��1�� shortcut is going to be your friend
- supply paths - the ��5�� shortcut is going to be your friend, too
- the rail and road systems - the ��r�� and ��y�� shortcuts are going to be your friends
- disruption, morale and number of disabled squads

On the state of your Chinese units, please note they have low XP and low morale. You want to increase that - which means you need to let them rest, don�t change the preparation targets willy-nilly (XP starts increasing once at 100), and keep replacements & upgrades off for the moment. A Chinese Corps is weaker than an IJA Division, maybe even weaker than an IJA Rgt, so you want to only be involved in defensive fights, in good terrain.

The AI is not good at the land war, you can easily surround them, cutting their supply paths and isolating their spearheads in the base they�re attacking, depriving them of supply. Try to keep split LCU�s to cover more ground. Know how to use the hex sides to your advantage..

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 9:36:44 AM

Ambassador

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Google search for Allied strategy China
Plenty of good threads here.

Couple of other things to bear in mind.

China has plenty of infantry, but lacks artillery. Before Burma is lost, you might want to bring some artillery, particularly AT guns, and tanks. Maybe a couple of base forces too.

Chinese air forces are not good : old planes, low XP. You need to improve that, with a large scale training program, so keep the squadrons off the front lines. Move the AVG if you want to defend the air, using them only for CAP, moving around. Against the AI, I�ll also sometimes upgrade the Flying Tigers to other P-40B/E, to free up the H81�s to use them when the Chinese pilots are better trained.

Supply is always difficult in China, you need to keep the Burma road open as long as possible. It is possible to hold it forever, if you reinforce Moulmein�s area. If you do, not only do you get the 500 supplies per day from the Burma Road, but you may also keep moving supply to China by manipulating the supply spinners along the road.

Take your time to check up the map, terrain, roads, supply situation, including supply sources, to identify where you can defend, and the places you have to abandon. You need to keep your bases with a working industry (like LI, and HI where you have enough Fuel to make it work) free of any enemy troops.
Chengchow and Loyang are in serious danger, you need to retreat. You can�t defend in clear hexes, you need good terrain to mount a proper defense. But in the south, if you reinforce Nanning and Kukong, you can hold those bases. Wuchow, probably not, and even if Liuchow is a clear hex, you need to hold it given the railway - so, defend in the woods south and east of it. I usually also split a few corps to station units along the river banks, in the woods hexes south of Nanning-Liuchow and north of Nanning. In fact, a lot of the Chinese Corps which are in the north may safely be brought on the Nanning-Kukong-Changsha line. South China has a lot of bad terrain you can use, to isolate and besiege Canton and Hong Kong.
If you can hold Wenchow, you can also base patrol planes there to improve your submarines� performance in East China Sea.

And, key word : patience. Land war is not fast, no blitzkrieg here.

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 5

RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 10:22:35 AM

btd64

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Look for Kulls setup sheet. So use Kull as the author when you search. It is listed in his signature line....GP

< Message edited by btd64 -- 3/12/2021 10:23:16 AM >

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 10:50:27 AM

Phoenix100

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Wow. Loads of information. Many thanks, Ambass. And btd64. I'll peruse and consider and try all this. Thanks.

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 10:56:41 AM

HansBolter

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Against the AI it is extremely easy to liberate 90% of China by the end of '42.

The AI is abysmal at large scale land warfare.

It doesn't garrison what it has taken.

It creates large Death Star land forces that the Chinese have to scramble to throw enough in the path of to eventually stop the rampage. All the while, the AI is leaving every base it takes and then advances away, from completely empty.

Once the Chinese manage to throw enough in the path of these monsters to bog them down, the Chinese army closes in around them like an ameoba (sp?) cutting them off and eventually starving them out.

After 30 some odd games of trashing the AI in China every time I decided to play my current game as if I was playing against a human opponent who would be coming at the Chinese with competence. I retreated to the heavy terrain line giving up most of the main bases in the open terrain. The AI has sat back on its butt, leaving me alone while the Chinese army takes reinforcements every month. Once a supply line opens to China I will have an immense Chinese beast of an army to roll over the AI controlled Japanese with.

Any competent gamer, with any degree of experience, really won't need any help figuring out how to deal with the AI controlled Japanese in China. Approach it as you would any other war game and you will easily triumph.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/12/2021 10:59:19 AM >

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 11:02:25 AM

Phoenix100

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Thanks Hans. Whilst I have experience, I have no competence, sadly....

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 11:03:43 AM

Phoenix100

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My God, I just found and downloaded and started perusing Kull's allied spreadsheet. I am speechless. What a phenomenal piece of work. But seriously, it's also terrifying. Is this thing REALLY only a game? Really?

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Post #: 10

RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 11:13:32 AM

Ambassador

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

My God, I just found and downloaded and started perusing Kull's allied spreadsheet. I am speechless. What a phenomenal piece of work. But seriously, it's also terrifying. Is this thing REALLY only a game? Really?

It�s not a game, but a way of life.

Do it cool, against the AI you don�t have to do everything in the first turn. Or to check every unit every turn later. Keep notes about your plans, unit allocations, etc, it�ll help.

Kull�s spreadsheet is useful to avoid forgetting some units, when you start the game and are still inexperienced. It doesn�t replace learning the game, or thinking your plans. Try things out.

(in reply to Phoenix100)

Post #: 11

RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 11:41:55 AM

Trugrit

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Terrain and supply.

There has been a lot of threads in the forum about China.

A Few Threads:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4581259

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3010045

Japan Side:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3260504

Re-spawn Thread.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3474470
Posts by michaelm and Alfred.

When you get to PBEM China gets really interesting.
It is one of the critical questions the Japanese player needs to answer
at the start of the game:�.What an I going to do about China?

Playing for victory points note that Chungking is a key base.
In victory points Chungking is around number 5 in importance for Japan.
Chungking is around number 8 in importance for the Allies.

It is all terrain and supply.

Can Japan get there or will it bog down and burn huge amounts of supply it can not spare?
Can the Allies stop them and make them bog down.

And there is this:
�Never fight a land war in Asia�

Supposedly it was rule number two of fighting a war by Field Marshall Montgomery:
"Do not go fighting with your land armies in China. It is a vast country, with no clearly defined objectives."
His rule one was "Don't march on Moscow"

Some players feel that the ground game is the weakest part of the game.
In fact it is very sophisticated. There have been some very interesting
maneuvers executed in China.

Against the AI��.not so much.

Attachment (1)

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 12:59:54 PM

Phoenix100

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Thanks, Truegrit! Very kind. I have a lot to consider now....but I'll just muck around for a bit and see what happens too...That's the benefit of playing the AI, I guess.

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Post #: 13

RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 1:02:02 PM

Phoenix100

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One supplemental, from reading these things - 'What's a 'Sir Robin'?

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 1:46:26 PM

RangerJoe

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Brave Sir Robin, He bravely RAN AWAY! or words to that effect from Monty Python.

It is not quite the end of 1942 and I am finishing off 4 Japanese divisions at Clark which are surrounded and starving. One of the divisions was a 1000 AV monster. Luzon is otherwise free.

I just put a little over 300k of supplies into Hong Kong on the third trip. I am besieging Peiping and moving in on Shanghai. Manchukuo sent about 1800 AV with a little help from Japan across the river SW of Pieping to stop me there, but those units can't retreat and I am using them to try and suck supplies away from Peiping while the other city there, I am across the river and working on isolating it. So China is almost cleared of the infection. I have some Chinese units with over 70 experience.

I am units preparing for Formosa and Hainan.

I may go into 1943.

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quote:

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 1:51:50 PM

dwesolick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

One supplemental, from reading these things - 'What's a 'Sir Robin'?

Brave Sir Robin ran away!

It refers to the venerable Allied strategy of hauling a$$ from the DEI, Philippines, Malaya, etc. while taking everything that isn't bolted down...and some things that were bolted down! It basically means not even attempting to put up much of a fight in the "Southern Resources Area" and just saving as many units to fight another day in other places (Australia, India/Burma).

The name comes, of course, from the great Monty Python movie.

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 6:13:19 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dwesolick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

One supplemental, from reading these things - 'What's a 'Sir Robin'?

Brave Sir Robin ran away!
It refers to the venerable Allied strategy of hauling a$$ from the DEI, Philippines, Malaya, etc. while taking everything that isn't bolted down...and some things that were bolted down! It basically means not even attempting to put up much of a fight in the "Southern Resources Area" and just saving as many units to fight another day in other places (Australia, India/Burma).

The name comes, of course, from the great Monty Python movie.

To be specific "Monty Python and the Holy Grail", not "Life of Brian".

EDIT: Meant to mention - since you are trying to learn the game, don't be afraid to reload a turn that was a disaster and make some changes to see what effect that has when you run it again. The AI is very patient, as long as you keep the electricity coming.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 3/12/2021 6:15:56 PM >

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 7:53:32 PM

Dan1977

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Phoenix100,
Against the AI, I would add that it is possible to send a large Chinese ground force into the same defensible terrain hex as a smaller Japanese force. Instead of attacking the Japanese, you let them attack you. The defender gets the terrain advantage. I'm currently doing this in a large city (w/ terrain bonus). I have a very large Chinese ground force sitting in this Japanese base that has a smaller Japanese force. The AI has sent the Japanese to attack several days in a row despite being heavily out-numbered. The Japanese are incurring tremendous casualties, and the Chinese are only suffering light losses. In a few more days of this, the Japanese will be reduced to a fraction of their original strength. I echo what the others have said, defend in good terrain vs forts 1-3 in flat open terrain. Fortifications can be reduced by the enemy, but not so the terrain.

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 8:08:52 PM

Ambassador

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The advice I�d give, before going all in with issuing orders everywhere, is : start a campaign on a light-mode. Don�t worry about building bases, moving many units, organizing all the convoys. Let the turns run, to see the pace of things, the scope of the full campaign, etc.

If you do full turns, and go back on a previous turn when something went wrong, you�ll throw dozens of hours of game for mostly nothing. At start, a turn will ask 2 or 3 hours, maybe more (and certainly more for the first one), with a lot of clicks which don�t require much thinking. If you go back only one turn, and you remembered to save the turn after your orders, you�re okay, you didn�t lose much. But if you have to go back 2 or 3 turns, because changing the orders for one turn doesn�t allow you to avoid the catastrophe, you throw away several hours.

So, don�t worry, do a couple dozen turns without pressure, knowing you�ll start again, just to see the pace of the Japanese advance, how the battles evolve in Malaya, the Philippines, China, your first losses to the IJN submarines. See the time it takes to bring a TK convoy from Los Angeles to Sydney, how many cargoes you have overall, where your unrestricted combat units are. This is the kind of things which, if you don�t check them now, will make you lose several turns, so a dozen hours of issuing orders.

Take notes, so that, in a couple of days, when you start in earnest, you have a clearer idea of what you should do.

And I would say : don�t go back in time too often. You�ll learn better if you have to face the consequences, and, frankly, as the Allies, you�ll get way more of everything than you could lose, even if you lost everything you have on the map at start.

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 9:21:50 PM

Kull

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

My God, I just found and downloaded and started perusing Kull's allied spreadsheet. I am speechless. What a phenomenal piece of work. But seriously, it's also terrifying. Is this thing REALLY only a game? Really?

There's a lot of good advice here in this thread, but it's mostly misplaced. The assumption is that you know what you are doing or will somehow figure it out on your own along the way. Neither is likely to be true. The whole point of that terrifying spreadsheet is to hold your hand and step you through the 1000's of things that AE veterans do without really thinking about it. Only after you have become familiar with the basics will you be able to handle more advanced concepts.

So ignore the noise. Take several days and slowly go through the spreadsheet and perform ALL the actions. When you've done that, and finally hit that longed-for end turn button, you will have a pretty decent grasp of how to perform the baseline activities upon which everything else is built.

There aren't any shortcuts and those who hint that there are, aren't doing you any favors.

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/12/2021 10:31:15 PM

RangerJoe

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Well, he did state that he did a few of these scenarios and wanted more - much more. I think that he has become addicted.

The most important advise that I can give is to have fun. As the song says "Don't worry, be happy."

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/14/2021 1:47:30 PM

Phoenix100

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Thanks all. I'm going very slow. Keep coming back to it, little at a time. Not enough time outside RL, really. It's easily addictive, but I have been addicted to it for around 6 years now, in that case, and still haven't played a turn 1.... Have completed the smaller scenarios, but approaching the main game I'm wont to reach a point where I say - no, no, I can't, it's too much and it's too hard to even see!!! Then, too much to learn in a slow way, asking in here after searching uselesly in manuals and on-line. And so many questions that it's not worth asking them all. Like why do some bases in the list appear in capitals, to take one random example. But I'll figure it out eventually. When it's too much then I take the shortcut off the taskbar and have a rest. But...I keep coming back and trying again.

All your advice much appreciated.

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Post #: 22

RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/14/2021 2:50:56 PM

RangerJoe

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Then here is a suggestion. Save your game along with notes on what you did. The first turn in the longest one, it then gets much quicker except for the "housekeeping" turns where you check on your training units and "harvest" your trained pilots. Once you get enough ships of the right class, you can set up convoys to run automatically, removing those that need to go into the "body and fender shop" but replacing them with those that are repaired.

Remember also, you don't have to do everything on the first turn.

As far as too hard to see, I have the computer on my chest while I am reclining on my chair. No I am not in my chair but rather, I am on my chair.

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RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/14/2021 3:49:28 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

The assumption is that you know what you are doing or will somehow figure it out on your own along the way.

quote:

Worked just fine for me.

There is no substitute for learning by doing.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/14/2021 3:50:32 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: China (allies) - scenario 6 - help. - 3/14/2021 5:15:25 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

The assumption is that you know what you are doing or will somehow figure it out on your own along the way.

quote:

Worked just fine for me.

There is no substitute for learning by doing.

The same for me.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 3/14/2021 5:19:45 PM >

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Post #: 25