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On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/12/2021 10:37:39 PM

Hoggypare

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

Hello
One of the aspects of a game that I really like are the profiles and how much they add to the political simulation SE features. However, they do have some problems, that usually cause me to just stick to the same ones across multiple games.
I think making all of them viable is crucial to replayability, so that all choices are equally interesting.
Thus I'd like to present some outline of my perceived problems and some potential solutions.

Politics
In general I consider democracy and meritocracy to be in good place. As personal preference I prefer meritocracy, but democratic bonuses are very strong as well. I have seen a criticism that meritocracy I hard to establish due to events, but I find it a nice flavour - that is how it should be, it might be the 'best' but not a 'popular' choice

A real outlier, the biggest problem and a main reason why I write this feedback is autocracy. Nothing in this tree seems exciting, and some 'bonuses' are outright detrimental (firing squad). It offers almost no inherent buffs, and the stratagem cards do not make up for it.
I have however brainstormed an idea that might be both relatively easy and fast to implement, help its viability and give autocracy a very specific flavour. If we think about it, autocratic systems give the leader vast array of executive powers, but suffer from inefficiencies and other problems. This is what the idea that the tree does not provide inherent bonuses, but instead a choice of powerful stratagems (executive decisions) portrays well, and I like that. Those stratagems however are too weak as of yet. However, what if we expanded the autocratic options with stratagems that allow You to influence other profiles? It makes sense, as autocratic nature of the state gives the leader control over its direction. The infrastructure for such mechanic already exist in the game (such a card could create an event with a choice which profile to boost next turn or be like the newly added scrap point stratagems) and would be truly unique.

Society
Honestly, this section I consider near perfection, and another reason why I decided to give feedback. In every game a choice between Enforcement, Commerce and Government is a tough one. Everything here is useful and You wish You could have all. I wish the other trees were as good.

Psychology
In my perception the main problem of this tree is how universal the mind tree is. It provides very solid bonuses (to research nonetheless, often best choice in strategy games), great unit feats and best combat stratagems. Heart has decent-ish bonuses, but loyalty and high morale can be relatively easily secured by high salaries. Additionally its stratagems seem to me mostly useless, and I would rarely consider using them for their disadvantages (also why isn't glorious war a heart stratagem?). Fist offers a very strong combat bonus, but it is black and white, only the feats that give it matter, most stratagems are weak compared to the flexibility of mind's.
Since balancing this tree would involve looking at the numbers related to every card and feat and tweaking it, and this post is already long as it is, I will only offer some suggestions. Economize needs more bonuses, like ammo use reduction - food is no issue most of the time so why take a morale hit. Both Ambush and No Retreat are early in fist tree, and they do the same thing, contributing to inflexibility (and they make You lose more soldiers). Forced March looks really sad compared to Rush.

These are some of my points. I hope my input is useful

I do not claim I understand everything about the game, so I welcome any discussion and counterarguments - especially from MP players, as I might not see some issues that do or do not arise in pvp enviroment.

Post #: 1

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/13/2021 8:43:36 AM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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There are 3 ways a profile can be good:
- passive bonuses
- Stratagems
- unit feats
Not all of them are equally good in all 3. That seems intentional

quote:

A real outlier, the biggest problem and a main reason why I write this feedback is autocracy. Nothing in this tree seems exciting, and some 'bonuses' are outright detrimental (firing squad). It offers almost no inherent buffs, and the stratagem cards do not make up for it.

Autocracy already has very strong stratagems - if you look at the secret Service council side primarily:
- the "Call to Power" had to be nerfed. Twice IIRC. it still alows you to sabotage a enemies military withotu firing a single shot
- Assasinate Leader is a Human Resources tool way superior to retirement or realy anything else
- and they can hire a specialy skilled secret Service Leader to boot, just so those rolls are efficient

In the 1.08.03 beta Autocracy got a passive buff. It goes like this:
- As fear counters unrest and many Autocracy choice create fear, it is save to asume fear was intended as a tool of Autocracies. However it was too viable to use for everyone - except for the fear choicse usually buffing Autocracy, everyone could use it as a no-brainer
- fear had a massive downside added. It is now at least as dangerous as unrest or danger for happiness
- however, Autocracy is able to ignore this fear buff largely or entirely
As a result fear stops being a anti-unrest tool for everone - and is now properly limited to Autocracies

quote:

In my perception the main problem of this tree is how universal the mind tree is. It provides very solid bonuses (to research nonetheless, often best choice in strategy games), great unit feats and best combat stratagems. Heart has decent-ish bonuses, but loyalty and high morale can be relatively easily secured by high salaries.

This asumes that you have money to spare. Try a higher difficulty, where you do not start on 30% tax and your Private Economy might be weak as heck.

Also in 1.08.03 beta Heart now also reduces the Danger Impact, similart o how Autocracy reduces fear

quote:

Fist offers a very strong combat bonus, but it is black and white, only the feats that give it matter, most stratagems are weak compared to the flexibility of mind's.

One part is you overrating mind. Asuming you did not Start on TL3 (which I consider a extra hardmode), Reserach is not nearly as important as other 4x style games. You can go quite the distance just with T4 or even T5 tech.
And even if you start on T3, you need some way to make your early army efficient. And Fist allows you to field "mass over class" Infantry Armies with good power and no worries for Casualty Tresholds.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 3/13/2021 8:44:56 AM >

(in reply to Hoggypare)

Post #: 2

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/13/2021 11:05:54 AM

Hoggypare

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

There are 3 ways a profile can be good:
- passive bonuses
- Stratagems
- unit feats
Not all of them are equally good in all 3. That seems intentional

I know, I am fine with that. I even said that explicitly when talking autocracy. The only thing I have a problem with if when some profile seems severely lacking or is too strong when comparing a sum of its parts.

quote:

Autocracy already has very strong stratagems

So does democracy... and meritocracy. Recruit talent is a fantastic card and recruit civilian can provide You with skilled characters for directors and governors. And those two profiles come with very powerful bonuses to either PP, QoL or most relevant skill rolls, and great unit feats as well. Is Call to Power that much powerful to make up for all that? I remain unconvinced.

quote:

1.08.03

I am aware of changes introduced in 1.08.03 - they are a step in a good direction, but those are very situational buffs for very specific scenarios in contrast to always useful ones that help Your regime no matter what's the situation. I wrote the above with knowledge about those changes.

quote:

Try a higher difficulty, where you do not start on 30% tax and your Private Economy might be weak as heck.

I play exclusively on hard with nemesis enabled. Try not assuming ignorance on Your debater's side.

quote:

One part is you overrating mind.

Possibly, but You did not say much that would change my claims. I am aware of fist bonuses (I stated that, again) and that they are a strong contender. And I know research in SE can be less of a priority. Nevertheless, mind is still very good, and it is very good in every regard. My biggest gripe of this tree are combat stratagems, that basically are such, that I would use all the array of what mind has to offer - while the other trees have 1-2 propositions that are acceptable (glorious war being an outlier)

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 3

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/13/2021 12:24:10 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

So does democracy... and meritocracy. Recruit talent is a fantastic card and recruit civilian can provide You with skilled characters for directors and governors. And those two profiles come with very powerful bonuses to either PP, QoL or most relevant skill rolls, and great unit feats as well. Is Call to Power that much powerful to make up for all that? I remain unconvinced.

Democracy has:
Hire Civilian
Wich gives you another Leader Recruitment card. But I see now indication the the quality is above Juniors in any way.
Cabinet Retreat
Wich has a giant price around ~50 PP
Prospecting Push
Wich by nature becomes worthless as you prospect. Indeed I can not remember when I last played it in forever.
Call to Rebellion
Wich is call to Power, except much later in the Profile and only affected civilians

And Meritocracy has passive bonuses that are "Meh", while being entirely focussed on the whole "good leaders" part.
While it has undoable skill challenges.

With the previous Autocracy I might have agreed with it being weak. But at the current one, it is not weak.
Even just being able to choose the Autocratic Option every time is a huge buff

quote:

I am aware of changes introduced in 1.08.03 - they are a step in a good direction, but those are very situational buffs for very specific scenarios in contrast to always useful ones that help Your regime no matter what's the situation.

Unrest is not uncommon. It is the single most common negative Happiness modifier in the game. You get it every time you conquer a city and by numerours events in established cities as well.

Every unrest based event has as Autocratic Choice that:
- applies fear, to reduce the unrest mid term
- is made better by having many troops and security points

quote:

I play exclusively on hard with nemesis enabled. Try not assuming ignorance on Your debater's side.

I am playing on Hard and even with 25% Sales and 30% Income tax, I am still running a deficit of dozens of credits.

So do not go asuming everyone has as much money as you playing on hard.

(in reply to Hoggypare)

Post #: 4

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/13/2021 12:47:12 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Cabinet Retreat
Wich has a giant price around ~50 PP

No, it's base cost is 10.
Might you know how the effective cost is calculated ?
It's 20 in my current game.

quote:

Prospecting Push
Wich by nature becomes worthless as you prospect. Indeed I can not remember when I last played it in forever.

Not as long as you claim new territory !
Bu yeah, I was wondering, are Prospecting Pushes I / II *so* much better than directly funding the Prospecting task ? (I think Governors also get a shot ?) Or are they more interesting due to the flexibility they give you ?

quote:

And Meritocracy has passive bonuses that are "Meh"

If by "Meh" you mean the best of all 3 ? (Depending on how much you care about PPs)

quote:

while being entirely focussed on the whole "good leaders" part.

No, they aren't.

quote:

While it has undoable skill challenges.

Only early on, and depending on your luck with leaders. Which is probably going to be better than average thanks to Recruit Talent !
(Ironically, it's probably Democracy's Hire Civilian that gives you the best shot at great Interpersonal Skills.)
And since Meritocracy suppresses Democracy, starting by raising Democracy until you get Hire Civilian, then switching to Meritocracy might be a good strategy ?

quote:

I am playing on Hard and even with 25% Sales and 30% Income tax, I am still running a deficit of dozens of credits.

Well, this is going to depend on a lot of different factors, especially the Society and Politics profiles !

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/13/2021 12:48:37 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 5

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/13/2021 2:05:13 PM

Hoggypare

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

Democracy has:
Hire Civilian
Wich gives you another Leader Recruitment card. But I see now indication the the quality is above Juniors in any way.
Cabinet Retreat
Wich has a giant price around ~50 PP
Prospecting Push
Wich by nature becomes worthless as you prospect. Indeed I can not remember when I last played it in forever.
Call to Rebellion
Wich is call to Power, except much later in the Profile and only affected civilians

Yes, Your overview of the stratagems is generally agreable. But why do You cherrypick the only aspect of 3, in which autocracy can compete while completely ignoring the great bonuses to PP and QoL that democracy provides, on which autocracy has what... somewhat more efficent unrest reduction? With enough PP and QoL unrest won't be an issue most of the time. Not to mention democracy has amazing unit feats, while autocracy has bunker busters that are good and firing squad that is actively detrimental.
What counts here is the profile choice is the sum of its parts - as that, autocracy is adequate in stratagem department, and falls flat on other 2.

quote:

And Meritocracy has passive bonuses that are "Meh", while being entirely focussed on the whole "good leaders" part.
While it has undoable skill challenges.

With those "meh" bonuses they get consistently doable, while the amazing characters contribute to every part of Your nation getting ahead. Great governors boost economy, directors research and stratagems, while military prodigies make the most out of Your military. Not to mention, again omitted, fantastic unit feats, especially the warrior knight.

quote:

I am playing on Hard and even with 25% Sales and 30% Income tax, I am still running a deficit of dozens of credits.

Sorry to be sharp, but maybe choosing autocracy in its current state is contributing to You struggling. Because what meritocracy and democracy give are great tools to solve many of the empire's problems, while autocracy provides suboptimal ones just to some situations. Good leaders and PP go a long long way.

I would honestly prefer that You adressed my proposed solutions as they are rather tame, and say whether You would consider them a good change, unless Your overview of the game is so different in its essentials to mine, that You want no changes whatsoever.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 6

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/13/2021 3:09:31 PM

newageofpower

Posts: 261
Joined: 12/3/2020
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Call to Power is pretty trash, tbh.

Now, Assassinate Leader is potentially really, really good, but I would rate Autocracy Stratagems as overall inferior to Democracy, and if you include the bonuses... Very few MP players run Autocracy, especially in long games.

(in reply to Hoggypare)

Post #: 7

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/13/2021 5:32:25 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

What did you think of Call to Power before the (several?) nerfings ?

Democracy might be worse than Autocracy at credits, considering how much you have to pay for the unrest events if you want to raise it. Of course this depends on the two other Profile Group picks and the overall situation...

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/13/2021 5:33:35 PM >

(in reply to newageofpower)

Post #: 8

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/14/2021 2:30:45 AM

Hoggypare

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

Call to Power is pretty trash, tbh.

Now, Assassinate Leader is potentially really, really good, but I would rate Autocracy Stratagems as overall inferior to Democracy, and if you include the bonuses... Very few MP players run Autocracy, especially in long games.

That was my general understanding/intuition. Thanks for the input on MP.
If You'd care to tell, how do You think my idea for 'fixing' autocracy would work and would it be sufficient or perhaps potentially too strong in the MP enviroment?

< Message edited by Hoggypare -- 3/14/2021 2:31:17 AM >

(in reply to newageofpower)

Post #: 9

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/14/2021 3:47:17 PM

Soar_Slitherine

Posts: 426
Joined: 6/7/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoggypare

(also why isn't glorious war a heart stratagem?)

Because Fist is themed around being obsessed with dominating everyone else, and it's intended for boosting successful units that have high morale because they're winning a lot of fights. It has obvious synergy with Heart, but a posture with a snowball mechanic doesn't particularly fit Heart's theme.

(in reply to Hoggypare)

Post #: 10

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/14/2021 4:12:28 PM

Hoggypare

Posts: 9
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Because Fist is themed around being obsessed with dominating everyone else, and it's intended for boosting successful units that have high morale because they're winning a lot of fights. It has obvious synergy with Heart, but a posture with a snowball mechanic doesn't particularly fit Heart's theme.

I see Your point, and not neccessarily disagree when You put it that way - that said, heart's theme is glory, honour and patriotism (at least in military matters) so I would argue that it could fit in heart just as well.
I guess that was just my attempt to make heart have any useful military stratagems.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)

Post #: 11

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/14/2021 9:27:20 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoggypare

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine

Because Fist is themed around being obsessed with dominating everyone else, and it's intended for boosting successful units that have high morale because they're winning a lot of fights. It has obvious synergy with Heart, but a posture with a snowball mechanic doesn't particularly fit Heart's theme.

I see Your point, and not neccessarily disagree when You put it that way - that said, heart's theme is glory, honour and patriotism (at least in military matters) so I would argue that it could fit in heart just as well.
I guess that was just my attempt to make heart have any useful military stratagems.

Hearts ting is patriotism yes. But it is also coopeartion an the greater good of the whole.
War does not serve the wellbeing of teh whole, but is often a unavoidable nessesity.
Heart is for peace, every time that Fist is for War. Thast is not glorificaiton of combat.

Soldiers willing to go the extra mile for the nation, trusting that their hard work will pay off.
Leaders that operate well together, understanding they are "sitting in the same boat".
A Population that trust the leaders - almost blindly.

Fist theme is glory and honor. It is "charge the walls. Let the corpses of our fallen form a ramp for you to walk over."
The only overlap happens in the area, where one gives way to the other (supresses the other profile).

(in reply to Hoggypare)

Post #: 12

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/16/2021 12:49:04 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

quote:

Cabinet Retreat
Wich has a giant price around ~50 PP

No, it's base cost is 10.
Might you know how the effective cost is calculated ?
It's 20 in my current game.

I'm starting to think that it's just (uniformly) random from round to round, anywhere between base cost and double base cost.
I've been paying a lot of attention to the cost of Bureaucratic Push lately (which has the same base cost of 10), and seen it varying (seemingly uniformly?) between 10 and 20 PP...

EDIT : Also this multiplier might be the same for the same Council, unless I got lucky to get x2 cost on all 4 of Interior, HR, Taxes AND Tariffs at the same time !

EDIT2 : Wait a second, what if this is directly tied to me not having an Interior Director during that turn's processing, resulting in half effectiveness ?

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 3/16/2021 12:57:55 PM >

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 13

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/16/2021 4:49:15 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

quote:

Cabinet Retreat
Wich has a giant price around ~50 PP

No, it's base cost is 10.
Might you know how the effective cost is calculated ?
It's 20 in my current game.

I'm starting to think that it's just (uniformly) random from round to round, anywhere between base cost and double base cost.
I've been paying a lot of attention to the cost of Bureaucratic Push lately (which has the same base cost of 10), and seen it varying (seemingly uniformly?) between 10 and 20 PP...

EDIT : Also this multiplier might be the same for the same Council, unless I got lucky to get x2 cost on all 4 of Interior, HR, Taxes AND Tariffs at the same time !

EDIT2 : Wait a second, what if this is directly tied to me not having an Interior Director during that turn's processing, resulting in half effectiveness ?

5.6.7
"The PP cost of your Stratagems is dependent on your Relation with the Leader who�ll execute the Stratagem. If Relation is higher than 50 you will have to pay less PP, if Relation is below 50 you�ll have more PP"

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 14

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/16/2021 6:06:30 PM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

Thanks!

Damn, I should really finish reading the manual one of these days !
And I will have to be more careful as to when I temp-fire a director...

Yeah, so, for instance currently with 78 Relation, it's :
10 base / 78% = 12.8 rounded to 13 PP.

Wait, that's not that simple, no Leader is supposed to be relation 0 leader, and
10 / 0% = infinite, not 20 !

Maybe below 50 Relation it works differently ?

Or it's better for this to have no leader than a relation 50 leader ?
Or maybe under 50 relation you still get the max doubled cost ?

But no, that would contradict the above quote and also :

quote:

The absence of a Leader for the Organization that executes the Stratagem
increases the PP cost to the max.

And we already know that this "max" is double cost.

Yeah, I can't seem to figure out the exact math, and taking the Relation Bonuses for BPs doesn't seem to work either :
68 relation on previous turn is +18%, and :
10*1.5/118% = 12.7 works, but in another example :
71 relation last turn (+21% bonus), 76 relation this turn for a 40 PP base cost :
40*1.5/121% = 49.6, while I get 52 PP !
and directly 40/76% = 52.6 works, but rounded down this time ??

quote:

Using the Supreme Council to execute these Stratagems also increases the PP cost.

Good to keep in mind !

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 15

RE: On the profile balance (and potential solutions) - 3/16/2021 6:08:56 PM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

Yeah, so, for instance currently with 78 Relation, it's :
10 base / 78% = 12.8 rounded to 13 PP.

Wait, that's not that simple, no Leader is supposed to be relation 0 leader, and
10 / 0% = infinite, not 20 !

For council tasks, Relation is a -50% to +50%.
With no Leader being counted as the worst relation score of -50%.

I would asume this works similar - it simply asumes a Leader Relation of 0 if there is no Leader.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 16