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That's it? - 8/20/2003 2:30:59 AM   
Vathailos

 

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You respond to a good-natured opinion counter to yours with hostility. You complain that I don't provide a point, or state anything clearly.

Then, when I take the effort to make what I'm saying painfully clear, instead of having the brass to rebut/debate your theory you insult me and sign out?

Bah X 2. Take your ball and go home then little fella. If you can't back up your opinions with facts, or if you can't debate theories without getting personal, then you should think twice before posting them. Alternately, I'd recommend you continue to post, just grow some thicker skin. If what I wrote first came off as mean-spirited to you, it was unintentional.

Stop spewing the venom, and don't assume you know it all.

In this instance, I know how my soldiers have been trained, how our combat support soldiers have been trained, and how I've been trained. I've worked with live mines, armed and disarmed them. I know how much tolerance you have to work with, and it's not a comfortable level IMO in a training environment. Add bullets, noise, and a hundred other distractors and it's downright dicey. I personally don't feel that your average crewman (AFV, AT, Mortar, Truck, etc.) could pull it off time and time again. Or that they'd even have the brass to try. Currently, every crew in the game can and will, and I feel that's unrealistic.

And if you're going to close with one statement, be a little more concise. What was it that indicates that I've been in service a day too long?

(in reply to RichardTheFirst)
Post #: 31
- 8/20/2003 2:45:23 AM   
VikingNo2


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Vathailos don't you owe me a turn?

And we can start a H2H battle anytime

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Post #: 32
Ahem... - 8/20/2003 3:01:28 AM   
Vathailos

 

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That I do...

It's been sitting open at my house since lunch. :o (read the post two back from me, the "EDIT" portion).

I'm in dire straits in our game. I've been pulling in units from other areas on the board to reinforce against your pushes in the center. Since I can't reinforce, you're going to roll through like dominos when a portion of my line breaks. I am weighing my options, but the turn will be sent to you this evening regardless. I may fight it out to the bitter end, but our next go-round, I want a somewhat smaller map, too much for my n00b brain ATM ;).

I actually do like the larger ones, but they turns take much time if you're going to try and move smartly. These large games are a HUGE learning opportunity, but I've been pinched for time of late. I just lost a soldier in Iraq, came out of command, and have about 3 more irons in the fire currently. Not much time to breathe. I've got a bit of down-time during the day (the whole "hurry up-n-wait" routine).

Genuinely sorry for the wait. I looked at the board for a 1/2 hour today trying to see if there was anything I could salvage. I'm convinced that if I move forward in the South, you've got your backfield ****ling with AT guns (grrrr...). I'll have to see what the PEN of your 57mm's and 3" can do in the encyclopedia. Tigers are thick, but at what distance...

(in reply to RichardTheFirst)
Post #: 33
Re: Geesh - 8/20/2003 3:14:18 AM   
Belisarius


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vathailos
[B]Mouthy punks are the last thing I tend to tolerate well, in any language. The tone of my post was light-hearted ribbing. Notice all the smiley faces? I tried as politely as possible to tell you that what you’re suggesting is unrealistic. And now, you want to puff up and throw your chest out? :rolleyes:
[/B][/QUOTE]

Uh, not to pick sides, but I have to say that for all the light-heartedness in your post Vathailhos, you were quite condescending. :rolleyes: So don't bare your teeth for being approached in the same manner.

That's all I have to say.

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Post #: 34
- 8/20/2003 3:20:56 AM   
Belisarius


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]Depends on the mine, but its just the opposite ( IMO ) AT mines can be burried deeper and normally take much more to set them off, however I'm not as well versed in WWII era mines as some around the forum [/B][/QUOTE]

Neither am I, but that will be a correct assumption. A WWII regular AT mine is useless against infantry, a soldier isn't heavy enough to set it off.

Caused the Afrika Korps quite some troubles many times in NA as marching infantry stepped right through the minefields.

As for the 'crew-mineclearers', I guess this is one area where SPWaW stretches the reality features a bit. Crews wouldn't be too slick at digging for mines. B'sides that I guess if you're crew and have to abandon your ride, the last thing you'll do is to stick around looking at the ground...

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Post #: 35
- 8/20/2003 3:32:12 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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To Vaithalos,

Alright, since you insist I'll be crystal clear. I don't like talking or debating with people that say things they wouldn't have the courage of saying it if they were face to face with me.

You started with that lil fella thing, with that hairy chests (btw: are you gay or something?) and that general tone. And now you say I insulted you? Don't make me laugh.

I don't have the patience or inclination to debate things with rude, coward or bad mannered people. That's why I'm trying to sign off with you. Have I made myself clear?

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Post #: 36
- 8/20/2003 3:50:42 AM   
Frank W.

 

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folks: drink a beer and calm down :)

crew can clear mines in SPWAW,because they are treated like inf in the game. so it is. don´t know if there will a change in this in the new version ( if it ever comes ).
if not we must live with it.

btw: i noticed that MKIII tanks can carry 8men while panther´s,too can carry 8. quite unrealistic IMHO. i´ve seen the size difference of those 2 in reality......

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Post #: 37
- 8/20/2003 4:27:46 AM   
Vathailos

 

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Bel:

Point taken, condescension unintended. But I was adopting the tone of Richard’s (what I thought was) sarcastic tone above, where he responded that he didn’t like someone who had just disagreed with him (Melon?). Mine was intended to be, like I said, a good-natured “here now, young fella” type of commentary. A tongue-in-cheek variation of a presentation that I’ve heard all too often myself. When the old MSG winds up and starts with the “back in my day” type of yarn. If you’ve ever heard one of those before, you’ll know what I mean. When someone tries to sell me opinions as fact, then gets pissy when I don’t buy, I don’t typically take that with teeth hidden. I’ll disagree with more tact, add less humor to cloud my message in the future, but I won’t suffer arrogant children who think they know it all.

And AP mines were laid with AT mines IIRC, weren’t they? I know they are now, but things change.

Richard:

Now you're trying to play tough with the "say it to my face" board warrior BS? :rolleyes: You're fooling no one but yourself. Act as brave as you want, but I've seen the same playground bravado mentality get plenty a 17 year-old’s head stuck up his 4th point of contact fast when he tries that worthless posing in Basic. You haven’t learned that lesson yet. If you act IRL as you’re doing here, you’ll learn it soon enough. Pity I won’t be there to see it.

No, I’m not gay. The “chest” comment was in my SECOND post, after you’d responded like a snotty little child. But thanks for another favorite teenage insult though, they love to use the homosexuality insults. I’m surprised you didn’t say something about my mother. Pathetic little punk.

And neither am I cowardly, or rude. I just have a low degree of tolerance for little arrogant teens who want others to unquestioningly take their uninformed opinions as facts, and who puff up at the first sign of disagreement.

Back to topic…

You say that the game simulates mine clearing “very close too”. Let me ask you this question:

[I]Do you have ANY experience clearing mines yourself? Or are you just talking out your a$$ about that also?[/I]

You say it like it’s fact, but it’s only your opinion, with no facts at all to back it up. When someone else provides information that might disprove your assumption, you get pissy, and storm off.

You say that “being aggressive does not make you more intelligent, on the contrary.” Well, that's just laughable. Now you're trying to sell us on the fact that if someone agressively disagrees with someone, they're unintelligent.

Ever heard any of George S. Patton's conversations with his peers/subordinates/superiors (or seen transcrcipts)?

Would you call him a pacifist? No?

Well, is he a moron? No?

Well, guess that statement’s about as accurate as the rest of the BS you try to pass off as “fact” here.

You were wrong about crews being “infantry” OR “foot soldiers”. Your argument about their [I]elite[/I] status has been shot full of holes, and so you result to insulting now, because you have nothing left. Quit posing, and stick to your initial promise. If you can’t rebut the argument about the facts, quit your name calling and shut the hell up already.

(in reply to RichardTheFirst)
Post #: 38
- 8/20/2003 4:29:06 AM   
VikingNo2


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Frank you Buying, they can argue, we can drink, you ever had Thia Whiskey ?

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Post #: 39
- 8/20/2003 4:53:52 AM   
Frank W.

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]Frank you Buying, they can argue, we can drink, you ever had Thia Whiskey ? [/B][/QUOTE]

i actually drink lemon lemonade :D

and: i don´t like whiskey at all...

ps: get your game going with rbrunsman if you both have time to spare ;)

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Post #: 40
- 8/20/2003 7:42:43 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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Vathailos,

OK, I have to give you some justice. At least you present some arguments with some coherence, so let's continue this dance a little while longer.

I do mean what I said, it was no bravado and even with 41 years old I maintain that if you said to me face to face what you said without knowing me from nowhere you would be risking your front teeth, I don't care how many years of army you have. But there's no way we can prove that here so, let's move on.

About pretending you were defending poor MelonHead, do you really think you can convince anyone with that argument? When I said "I don't :D” , it was supposed to be a joke. Naaa, you wanted to pick a fight or be arrogant enough and expect this inexperienced Portuguese to put his tail between his legs and chicken out. Confess it: you are missing the days when you could humiliate and harass your unfortunate recruits.

Let me tell you 2 or 3 things:

1st of all: I'm not inexperienced. At least not in SPWAW. You haven't seen me around lately but I know Steel Panthers since version 1, many years ago. Played also version 2 and discovered this forum about 3 years ago. Played many games in version 6.xx till the beginning of version 7.0. Made a lot of friends here and played several PBEM games. My posts are only 400 and so now, but before this site changed used to be way more than 1000. Been out of this community for the last year though. Other travels.

So: 1st mistake you made.

2nd: Did you think you can talk like that because of my nationality? That's even a bigger insult. As you see Portuguese people know how to respond to arrogant bastards like you and do not chicken. Maybe this was good to your general culture in that aspect. Or maybe you thought my English wasn't good enough to understand some fancy words and expressions you used.

Anyway: 2nd mistake.

3rd: what's that talk about me being little or young. I have 41 years old and 1,89m. I have a superior degree. Do you think because I could have some limitations in expressing myself in English that I'm not good enough? What arrogance... and ignorance.

3rd mistake

You made some insinuations because I didn't want to continue the discussion. That isn't due to lack of arguments. That is only due to the fact I don't like you. I'll prove it to you in a second.

4th mistake

Could continue on and on but I'm getting tired of this.

I still don't understand your fixation on man's chests. I believe you are not gay (at least not an assumed one eheh) but you were the one implying that man's virility comes with the volume of hair. You said something about 17 year's old arguments? This one seems like coming from a 10 years old. OK, let’s move on.

Let's get back to the game issue (happy?):

You and many others are saying that crews clearing mines is very distant to reality. OK, I buy that and yes I never had any military experience myself. I'm a war gamer though and I know a little bit about military things.

My point is only degree of mine clearing ability. That's why I mentioned statistics and tests to determine what do they clear and how that varies with experience.

OK, Frank W. says that crews are treated just like infantry in this game and I admit infantry have a lot more clearing ability than crews (alright, alright not "foot soldiers" what about "soldiers moving on their feet"? jezzz what's that obsession with words?)

If that's true, and I believe it is, than that's a limitation of the game engine. If they solved it with the mod, good.

But anyway I maintain what I said: vet or elite crews should have some mine clearing ability gained by combat experience (not being able to clear 3 or 4 mines per turn maybe only 1-2).

That isn't based on personal experience it is based on war-game and reading experience. You don't need to have a degree on Rocket Science to know that a U2 bomb is a rocket.

I think none of the arguments presented here, because they were too much focused on equipment and training, are sufficient to convince me that an experienced crew could not clear some mines. What about improvisation? What about people fighting for their lifes having to solve problems? What, in short, about combat experience? Especially in WWII when arms specialisation wasn't as restrictive as it is today. I do not want elite troops to be able to do anything. Just some things having to do with their field of action. For me this is one of those things.

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Post #: 41
- 8/20/2003 10:01:02 AM   
VikingNo2


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Not a newbe, noted:D , this will help me prepare for our upcoming battle.

Do you have a country you favor ?

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Post #: 42
Vath: 0 Fence Post:0 - 8/20/2003 11:09:53 AM   
Vathailos

 

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I.

First off, I never said I was "defending" Melon. Please, quote me on that. You can't even get that right. I said I was using the same sarcastic tone you had. I am not trying to convince anyone I was defending him, because I never was. Richard's 1st fabrication

II.

I wasn't hoping you'd put your tail anywhere except in your flapping, ignorant mouth. Risk teeth? You're really pulling for that board warrior Purple Heart, aren't you?

My point about chests is not an obsession btw, it's an illustration that you personify. That of an ignorant blowhard, protected by something (friends, distance, rules, whatever), who ACTS tough to cover the fact that his arguments are baseless. He thinks his virtual chest thumping will intimidate the guy across the table. Gorillas do that to try and frighten others, which is why I think it's particularly sad to see a human apeing the ape, so to speak.

When you can't substantiate your claims, you don't challenge someone to a fight over a computer BBS to cover your lack of a valid point. That ignorant, pathetic bravado may work against the little boys on the islands, but I see right through you. I see a weak little fella chest-thumping on the boards to distract attention from his lack of a coherent argument.

Do you think that anyone here gives a crap about your "superior degree", height, or age? You can't argue successfully, so you try and list all these wonderful traits about yourself that you think give your BS assumptions credibility.

I've got two Masters degrees, I'm 6'1", 210lbs, run my two mile in 10:26, and have completed military schools you can only read about. But does that give any credibility to my arguments? No, in fact it's no more than posturing. Fluff.

You behave like a little barnyard rooster puffing up to show off for all the hens around. Right until the farmer comes up and rings your neck and replaces you, because you're impotent.

Thinking your boasting is anything but pathetic posing = Richard's 2nd totally incorrect conclusion

III.

When did I say you were inexperienced with SPW@W? Not once. Quote me saying that, I dare you. Are you so slow, or having such translating difficulty that you can't understand what I'm saying? You're either an incredibly confused, or you don't know enough to shut your flapping lips. And THAT is what I was referring to.

What REAL MINE CLEARING EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE? Not in a board game, not in a computer game. I'm talking about putting your hands on real mines. I asked you that, and you failed to answer the question. I suspected that you have ZERO experience, either as a soldier or more specifically with mines. Yet you insist on trying to sell yourself as an expert with your 1000 posts. Your game playing doesn't mean you know jack about reality kid, and you fail to realize the connection, or lack thereof. You sit there and play GAMES and think that gives you knowledge about proper mine clearing doctrine? I'll ask you once more:

How can you say that the mine clearing is simulated "very close too" if you have no experience clearing mines, or knowing who's even trained to clear them?

Answer that simple question. You've failed to so far, only puffing your (hairless or hairy) chest up to show just how tough you are.

You thinking that number of posts or versions of SP played = real-world experience with mine-clearing tactics/techniques is pure ignorance personified, and Richard's 3rd asinine association.

IV.

Where did I address your nationality? I NEVER did, so don't try and play the "racist" angle. You're a dumbass, and I don't care which country you're from. Anyone who speaks out in volumes, holds their opinions to be facts, and attacks others for deflating their egos when they themselves have no CLUE what they're actually talking about is an ignorant ***. Plain and simple.

Welcome to Richard's 4th failure to comprehend.

V.

quote:

jezzz what's that obsession with words?


It's called knowing what the "f" you're talking about Richard, before you speak. Here's a definition for you:
quote:

foot soldier

n.
A soldier who fights on foot; an infantry trooper.
You don't even know what you're referring to when you speak. It's not an obsession with words, it's called being precise.

And that’s Richard’s 5th failure to say what he means and flame someone else for pointing out his error


VI.

And while we’re on precision, you claim to know what you’re talking about. Dismissing a certain amount of knowledge as rudimentary, as not “Rocket Science”. If it’s so simple and straightforward, the why didn’t you know it’s not a “U2”, it’s a “V2”? That’s it Richard, keep talking like you’re an expert.

Richard’s 6th screw-up, erroding his credibility

In conclusion, if you're 41, you've got to wake up, and grow up. You carry on like a clueless child. You make up quotes, attribute them to me, and then attempt to rebut them, rather than do one simple thing.

Tell me how, realistically, every crew in the game, either from weapon or vehicle, is suddenly knowledgeable in how to clear mines. Not just the Veterans, or your favorite the Elite, EVERY crew can clear mines.

Is that realistic Richard? NO.

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Post #: 43
- 8/20/2003 11:34:24 AM   
VikingNo2


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I think maybe we should move this to the Art of War forum, see both of you on the battelfield

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Post #: 44
- 8/20/2003 3:18:34 PM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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To the arrogant ******* over there.

Do you think you deserve I analyse your arguments with a magnifier like you do? Think again. From your last message I only read the first few lines and the rest I read in diagonal. Done more or less like that with the others. From the tone you were using I saw long time ago you don’t deserve more.

If you want to analyse and waste time with dictionaries, than you do it. Have a little work for a change. Enjoy!


Deves ser mesmo é um frustrado da tropa que tem masturbações mentais a aliviar na Internet o facto de não ter uma mulher em casa para bater ou recrutas na tropa para fazer a vida negra. Eu prefiro discussões edificantes não conversas com parvalhões pseudo-intelectuais frustrados que não têm mais nada para fazer com o seu tempo.

Adeusinho e podes continuar sozinho a partir de agora..

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Post #: 45
Just as I thought. - 8/20/2003 7:26:22 PM   
Vathailos

 

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You can't respond with facts, so you keep on mouthing off like some pompous dolt. For all your Portuguese insults and your machismo, you’re nothing but a tempest in a teacup. If you have to resort to weak tactics like that, you lost the argument a long time ago.

It’s not “analyzing under a microscope”, it’s called making sense. It’s called supporting your hypothesis with a fact or two that are valid, it’s called presenting a coherent argument, based on facts. It's called debate, defending your hypothesis with facts rather than rather than pretending to be an expert.It’s much better than spewing off BS, threatening someone when they point out it’s BS, then ceasing to address the issues altogether, and pulling some kind of “I’m better than thou” crap because you don’t have a leg to stand on.

"Waste time" with dictionaries? It’s called knowing what the hell you’re talking about before you open your mouth. Try that some time. You keep on spewing your opinion like it’s the truth from on high. No facts at all, just Richard’s opinions. Don’t dare question them, because then he’ll have to resort to threatening to knock your teeth out.

In the future you might want to look at the time on the post, not too many folks I know "work" at 2309.

If you don't have anything else to say "on-topic", then please just keep it to yourself. I'll try and do the same from this point forward. I can't believe I got drawn into this crap to begin with.

ON TOPIC

The fact that every single crew has mine clearing ability (regardless of their experience level) is a bit far-fetched IMO. I can substantiate a good portion of the training picture to support my hypothesis. If you have any disagreements on that level, I'd be willing to debate them with you, or anyone else. But without arrogance, without posing, without name calling, cussing and condescension.

Fair enough?

And sorry to all that have suffered through this ridiculous crap, for my part in it. This is a level to which I should not have sunk. Life preserver, anyone?

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Post #: 46
- 8/21/2003 8:55:57 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]Not a newbe, noted:D , this will help me prepare for our upcoming battle.

Do you have a country you favor ? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, my favorites are the Germans, after that U.S. Army. What about you?

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Post #: 47
- 8/21/2003 9:02:26 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]Not a newbe, noted:D , this will help me prepare for our upcoming battle.

Do you have a country you favor ? [/B][/QUOTE]


Ooops, almost forgot. I don't mind playing with the Japanese in a Jungle envinonment :)

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Post #: 48
- 8/21/2003 9:58:30 AM   
VikingNo2


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7.1 the US

H2H I have not decided yet


Not too good with the Russian but learning

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Post #: 49
- 8/21/2003 11:32:12 AM   
RichardTheFirst

 

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Well, I don't have H2H or know anything about it except that's a good mod. Plan to have it though.

I play terribly with the Russians but don't have much practise either.

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