Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.


So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.


So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

Hagel zum Frauleins!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.


So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

Hagel zum Frauleins!

I'm curious, how did they prove it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.


So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

Hagel zum Frauleins!

I'm curious, how did they prove it?

Look it up yourself. Use your internet time for a good use.

Hagel zum Harry!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

My bet is on the TBF and friendly fire...

Confusion and complications endangered the success of the mission. The Hellcats first had trouble finding the Avenger, the FDO had difficulty guiding any of them on the targets. O'Hare and Ensign W. Skon in their F6F Hellcats finally got into position behind the Avenger. Butch O'Hare had been well aware of the deadly danger of friendly fire in this situation – he radioed to the Avenger Pilot of his section, "Hey, Phil, turn those running lights on. I want to be sure it's a yellow devil I'm drilling."[38]

O'Hare was last seen at the 5 o'clock position of the TBF. About that time, the turret gunner of the TBF, Alvin Kernan (AOM1/c) noticed a Japanese G4M Betty bomber above and almost directly behind O'Hare's 6 o'clock position.[39] Kernan opened fire with the TBF's .50-cal. machine gun in the dorsal turret and a Japanese gunner fired back. Butch O'Hare's F6F Hellcat apparently was caught in a crossfire. Seconds later Butch's F6F slid out of formation to port, pushing slightly ahead at about 160 knots and then vanished in the dark. The Avenger pilot, Lieutenant Commander Phillips, called repeatedly to O'Hare but received no reply. Ensign Skon responded:[40] "Mr Phillips, this is Skon. I saw Mr O'Hare's lights go out and, at the same instant, he seemed to veer off and slant down into darkness." Phillips later asserted, as the Hellcat dropped out of view, it seemed to release something that fell almost vertically at a speed too slow for anything but a parachute. Then something "whitish-gray" appeared below, perhaps the splash of the aircraft plunging into the sea.


So given the lethality of a .50 (twin?) vs a single 7.7mm I say it was friendly fire.

Thus begs the question: In your games what is the greatest number of kills made by the 7.7mm or have you had games where zero kills were made?

I bet that if a bullet fired from either weapon hit you in the head, you would not care which one it was.

It has already been shown that it was not friendly fire that brought down O'Hare.

Hagel zum Frauleins!

I'm curious, how did they prove it?

Look it up yourself. Use your internet time for a good use.

Hagel zum Harry!

I did, if you bothered to read. Assertions are not proof. I suspect you don't have any proof or you would have provided it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]

Not sure I can find any "proof" in that quote. It was at night, he was in a cross-fire and we have no wreckage or body.

"Statements" in those conditions are not "proof".

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]

Not sure I can find any "proof" in that quote. It was at night, he was in a cross-fire and we have no wreckage or body.

"Statements" in those conditions are not "proof".

We're waiting (with baited breath ) for a single shred of "proof" from you that he was killed by friendly fire. Until then, you can bugger off with your "Make a statement and then demand others provide proof that you are wrong" modus operandi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Does it really matter if he died from friendly fire or enemy fire? The sad part is that the man died. A lot of people died
from friendly fire, both sides, all countries involved had them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Does it really matter if he died from friendly fire or enemy fire? The sad part is that the man died. A lot of people died
from friendly fire, both sides, all countries involved had them.

Not to him or his family no. But for someone to denigrate the USA at around the anniversary of his birth date then yes it does matter - if nothing else, an opportunity to denigrate the US government and/or members thereof.

But the circumstances of friendly fire incidents should be investigated in order to determine the how and whys in order to minimize such incidents in the future.

But blame his death on Japan since they were not invited to Oahu among many other places that 7th of December 1941.

quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hrafnagud

You forgot to add this bit from the Wikipedia article you took your quotes from:

"For 54 years there was no definitive answer as to whether he had been brought down by friendly fire or the Japanese bomber's nose gunner. In 1997 the publication of the primary source for this article, Fateful Rendezvous: The Life of Butch O'Hare, by Steve Ewing and John B. Lundstrom (see References below) shed new light. Ewing and Lundstrom very clearly state, more than once, that Japanese guns, and not Kernan's, killed Butch O'Hare.

In Chapter 16, "What Happened to Butch," the authors write, "Butch fell to his old familiar adversary, a Betty. Most likely he died from or was immediately disabled by, a lucky shot from the forward observer crouched in the rikko's [Betty's] forward glassed-in nose...the nose gunner's 7.7mm slugs very likely penetrated Butch's cockpit from above on the port side and ahead of the F6F's armor plate."[42] In the Index, Ewing and Lundstrom flatly state that Kernan is "wrongly accused of shooting down Butch."[43]

Why the confusion for so many years? Ewing and Lundstrom point out that the "most influential and oft-cited" account of O'Hare's last mission came in a 1962 history of the Enterprise by CDR Edward P. Stafford, which relied on action reports and recollections of former Enterprise crew, but did not contain interviews with any of the living participants. By contrast, Ewing and Lundstrom came to their conclusions on what happened to Butch after interviewing the still-living survivors of O'Hare's last mission: F6F pilot Skon, TBF radar officer Rand, and TBF gunner Kernan. Ewing and Lundstrom write, "Through Stafford and other accounts based largely on the action reports, Butch has wrongly become known as one of America's most famous "friendly fire" casualties."[44]

Not sure I can find any "proof" in that quote. It was at night, he was in a cross-fire and we have no wreckage or body.

"Statements" in those conditions are not "proof".

We're waiting (with baited breath ) for a single shred of "proof" from you that he was killed by friendly fire. Until then, you can bugger off with your "Make a statement and then demand others provide proof that you are wrong" modus operandi.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

you're ability to salute Hitler is discomforting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

you're ability to salute Hitler is discomforting.

What is your proof that I am saluting Hitler?

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

für das deutsche Vaterland!

Danach lasst uns alle streben

brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

sind des Glückes Unterpfand.

Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes,

blühe deutsches Vaterland!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I think losses suffered during operation Cottage gives a very good impression of how easy friendly-fire incidents occur and how costly they are.


Never heard of this Butch fellow, but apparently he was caught in a cross-fire. Both sides were responsible for the kill. It is the sad reality of war.

He was credited for shooting down 5 Betty bombers by himself. Three definitely crashed because of his actions, one plane was so damaged that the pilot tried to crash it onto a ship but failed, while another one did not make back to the airfield and crashed in Simpson Harbor, a flooded caldera of a rather large volcano which is at Rabaul. I do believe that he then finished smoking his cigarette that he had just started on. He had 4 fifty caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns with 450 rounds each. His wingman airplane guns jammed and would not fire.

He used deflection shooting, that is coming at the side and I believe that he was also higher than his targets. Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode, ruining their aircraft and sometimes their whole day.

The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years. One of his clients had a little difficulty with the law, the client's name was Al Capone.

1. Credited is not the same as actual. 3 Actualy.
If the aircraft do not make it back to their airfield due to damage, that is a kill. Since he damaged one that another pilot shot down, then that is 5.5 kills in a single mission.

2. " Pilots who attacked from the rear sometimes ran into 20mm shells which would then explode"...pure speculation, which apparently is your specialty.
Why don't you look up the armament of the Betty and prove me wrong? Or are you stating that HE 20mm shells don't explode?

3."The primary Chicago, Illinois, USA, commercial airport is named after him even though he grew up elsewhere but his father worked in Chicago for a few years." FACT: He never lived in Chiraq, I mean Chicago.
I never stated the Butch lived in Chicago, I was referring to his father. Get your facts straight.

I get a kick out of your posts. So dramatic.

"At 16:49, the Lexington's radar picked up a second formation of Bettys from the 4th Kōkūtai's 1st Chutai, only 12 miles out, on the disengaged side of the task force. With the majority of VF-3 still chasing the 2nd Chutai, only O'Hare and Dufilho were available to intercept. Flying eastward they arrived 1,500 feet (460 m) above the Bettys 9 miles (14 km) out at 17:00. Dufilho's guns jammed, leaving only O'Hare to protect the carrier. The enemy was in a V-of-Vs formation, flying very close together and using their rear-facing 20mm cannon for mutual protection. O'Hare's Wildcat, armed with four 50-caliber guns, with 450 rounds per gun, giving him about ten, 3-second bursts. "

Sieg Heil und Sieg zum Frauleins!

you're ability to salute Hitler is discomforting.

What is your proof that I am saluting Hitler?

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

für das deutsche Vaterland!

Danach lasst uns alle streben

brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit

sind des Glückes Unterpfand.

Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes,

blühe deutsches Vaterland!

I sure hope the Southern Poverty Center doesn't learn about this post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!


From your mouth to God's ear, Nazi

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!


From your mouth to God's ear, Nazi

I would post some things but the moderator would not like to see them.

Heil zum:

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
sollen in der Welt behalten
ihren alten schönen Klang,
uns zu edler Tat begeistern
unser ganzes Leben lang. -
|: Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!


From your mouth to God's ear, Nazi

I would post some things but the moderator would not like to see them.

Heil zum:

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
sollen in der Welt behalten
ihren alten schönen Klang,
uns zu edler Tat begeistern
unser ganzes Leben lang. -
|: Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang!

You really don't have anything of value to my threads. Why the need for continuous attention? We're you sexually abused as a child because your trolling and stalking would indicate that.