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Need help on 8.0 OOBs - 8/19/2003 10:47:59 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		Okay, here is the story:

You want to play the Long Campaign or even a single Battle Game verses Spwaw's Computer AI. When the AI selects its TOE you see see things like Ski troops during summer battles during an Assault Battle! Or hoards of Recoiless Rifles or the same old units over and over again depending on which setting is played: Meeting Engagement, Advance, or Assault.

If you have noticed this - I would like your imput here and lend us a helping hand so that it maybe possible to fix this before release of 8.0 OOBs. This is what you need to do - Have 7.1 oobs!

Go to the Spwaw Battle Game, Select two Nations, select Battle type - Meeting Engagement, Advance, or Assault. Select a Map size. Next, for both sides select Computer Purchase and Human Deploy. Select Continue and look at the Forces that the AI has selected and record them and post your findings on this thread!

Thanks for your help :)

You can copy this Format

Spwaw Battle Game - Year/Month

Player One Nation -
Player Two Nation -

Type of Battle - (Specify Meeting Engagement, Advance, Assault)

Map Size - (Specify Small, Med. , Large - Custom..)

Type Units seen -

_____________________________

MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp
Post #: 1
- 8/20/2003 1:40:00 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Ahh, the wonderful screwed up world of the infamous AI picklist!!! I'm very familiar with that, going through that exactr hassle at the moment with my Korean War mod!! I find it's much easier to use StuHack, you need to back up your oob, but this assigns all units/formations consequtive numbers, then it's much easier to tell whats what, mostly there are anywhere from 7-10 maybe more formations a given country will pick from, depending on stance AND year!! BUT, if you pick a certain year etc., you can get two different sets of numbers even then, within a certain year/stance, so beware. I would help you with this, since I'm experiencing this at the moment, but have no time at all to contribute, sorry, but feel free to holler if you have a question, I might be able to help.

Warhorse

_____________________________

Mike Amos

Meine Ehre heißt Treue
www.cslegion.com

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 2
Two results - 8/20/2003 2:58:18 AM   
JimPY

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 5/11/2001
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I tried following your instructions twice.
First Battle was Norway v. Ger. meeting engagement in 6/41 with a medium map. Germans had rifle squads, 3-4 mg's and 1 mortar. Norway had similar amount of rifle squads, 2 75mm AA guns, 3 skisnipers and 1 mortar.

Second battle was Finland v. USSR with Finland advancing on USSR delay in 12/40 with small map. USSR had 12 or so rifle squads and 1 50 mm mortar. Finland had similar amount of skisquads, 2 skihmg, 2 SW 8mm aamg and 1 mortar.

I hope that this helps. Will try some more this evening.

Jim Yalem

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 3
- 8/20/2003 3:18:05 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		I believe the fix for that is to turn 'rarity' off.

_____________________________

Jim NSB

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 4
- 8/20/2003 3:31:40 AM   
JimPY

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 5/11/2001
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Addendum to previous post. I checked my preferences and rarity was off. I hope that the information helps. I love SPWAW.

Jim Yalem

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 5
- 8/20/2003 4:15:06 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		tip: you should use some more points !

so the comp has something to buy.

noticed that H2H does a better job in purchasing - more tank heavy !

could be wrong though.

_____________________________


(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 6
- 8/20/2003 5:10:43 AM   
Red Devil

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 1/4/2002
Status: offline 		Ger vs Sov 9/42 Assault (River crossing)

Medium map

GERMAN...

HQ

2x barge carriers

1x Inf Co.

3x ATR

3x Engineer platoons

1x Engineer platoon ( minus FT squad)

2x 37mm AA

1xRecon Team
2xRecon Patrol

1x105mm FH bty

2x StuG ausf E

4x Stug ausf E
....................................
SOVIET

HQ

1x Rifle Co

3x Molotov AT squads

3x50mm mortars

3x MG nests

1x Sniper

2x 37mm AA

3x ATR men

2x 76.2 RR

2x 76.2 FG

2x Partisans

1x Sniper

(No mines)

No points limit set in preferences

Hope this helps..?

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 7
Setting rarity off vs AI - 8/20/2003 5:41:49 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Yes, turning rarity "OFF" does give the AI a more balanced mix, but I'm playing USMC vs Japanese in a long campaign, and turning mines "OFF" makes the AI able to buy battalions of mortars, artillery emplacements, caves and fortified bunkers. Every island assault is like Tarawa or Iwo Jima or worse, if that's possible. However, if you have experience in playing the AI, the poor dumb brute needs every advantage it can get.

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 8
- 8/21/2003 1:44:38 AM   
El_Peco

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 5/25/2001
From: Milan, Italy
Status: offline 		Italy vs Sov 8/1942, Italy advance, medium map

Sov:
2 Rifle Company (wth MG, ATR and 50mm mortar)
2 Rifle Platoon
2 Sniper
2 Section 37mm AA
3 76,2mm Battery (off-board)
1 Section ZiS 30
3 KV-2
1 Section KV-1E m.41

Italy
2 Company Line Infantry (with MG and mortars)
2 Platoon Line Infantry
2 Company "Bersaglieri" (with trucks)
2 Section 20mm AA Breda
1 Section SPA35 20mm AA
1 Platoon SMV 75/18
1 Platoon AB-41
1 Platoon M-14/41
1 Company CL-33 (I can't imagine these very little tankettes with 8mm MG vs the KV!:eek: )

Regards.

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 9
Purchase Results - 8/21/2003 2:20:58 AM   
Greybeard

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 8/21/2003
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Hello, New to the Matrix forum, but some of you may recognize my handle from the 'blitz' Wanted to respond to Marauder Mel's request. Have played a pair of H2H games now, 6K in size where the computer did the purchasing. First game as USA and the computer provided me with (7/43) two companies of mixed shermans, 3 Mechanized Rifle companies, 1 section M7
Priests, and 1 Section of 81mm SPM's. Germans got 1 air strike, 1 company of PzIVh's 1 Battery of StuG-G's, 1 platoon of TD's (Marder 3's), 2 Companies of Pz Grenadiers, 2 120mm mortar platoons, 1 off map 150mm battery.

The second game was amazingly similar in force make-up. But I can only speculate what the Germns have because the game is still in progress.

UK 11/42: 3 Grant/Lee troops, 3 rifle companies, 2 armored car sections, 1 battery of 25lb SPA's, 1 FO

Germans: 1 SS Panzer Co, 1 SS Pz Grenadier Co, 150mm off-map battery, 2-3 81mm mortar platoons, 1 platoon TD's (Marder-3's). I think that there is also a Rifle Company on foot, but not sure yet.

Found it interesting that in both games the Allies were given very little artillery. And the SS troops showed up in North Africa 1942.

_____________________________

Greybeard

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 10
- 8/21/2003 3:56:51 AM   
RUsco

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 8/11/2000
From: Grand Rapids,MI USA
Status: offline 		I can't help with the buying, but you have to check out the U.S. Marines. The 60mm mortar costs more than the 81mm.

Too many mortars in the companies. And the wrong type. There should be 3 tubes of 60mm to each Company. 4 81 mm Mortar were issued to the Battalion Leval.

Also the MG selection is wrong. Each Company should have 6 .30 cal MMG and 6 .30 Cal HMG

This is the braeakdown for the F-series May 1944.

Infantry Battalion
HQ Company
Battalion HQ
Company HQ
81mm Mortar Mortar..........4x81mm Mortar

Rifle Company(x3)...................................................235 men
Company HQ...........3x60mm Mortar.......................53 men
Machine Gun Platoon..6x.30cal LMG, 6x.30HMG .....43 men
Rifle Platon(x3)........................................................46 men

Info from U.S. Marine Corps World War II Divisions, Brigades and Regiments

"Gordon L. Rottman"

Hope this helps.

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 11
- 8/21/2003 6:19:27 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Guys, if you're serious about cleaning this up a bit, don't worry too much about the Germans, and all the other major players, they've had plenty enough attention, and that's the problem!!! Time ran out, and the minor nations got a quick going through, check out the Spains, Bulgaria, Hungary, now THEY need a new AI pick, screw the big three for now save them till last!!! Just my .02!:D

Warhorse

_____________________________

Mike Amos

Meine Ehre heißt Treue
www.cslegion.com

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 12
- 8/21/2003 9:03:52 AM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warhorse
[B]Guys, if you're serious about cleaning this up a bit, don't worry too much about the Germans, and all the other major players, they've had plenty enough attention, and that's the problem!!! Time ran out, and the minor nations got a quick going through, check out the Spains, Bulgaria, Hungary, now THEY need a new AI pick, screw the big three for now save them till last!!! Just my .02!:D

Warhorse [/B][/QUOTE]

True - but every bit of info helps.

Here is what seems to cause the AI Pick woes -

AI selects Formation groups with units that have a two rarity radio code added in. If you change this code - you'll mess up Two play style Lan/PBEM games when using Rarity On as these units cannot be selected by a Human player the majority of the time.

As it stands, I am not sure I can fix this issue in the 8.0 oobs at this time but please keep the reports rolling in as I'll explore more on what can be done and not be done.

_____________________________

MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 13
- 8/21/2003 9:06:23 AM   
JimPY

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 5/11/2001
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Norway v. Finland 1/42 meeting engagement on large map with 13,000 pts. per side

Finland has:
13 Companies of ski squad: each co. has hq ski squad, 4 platoons of 4 ski squads each, 4 ski mo9-21 hmg; 1 50 mm mortar
1 such co. without hmg's or mortars;
2 40 mm AA
4 76 K o2 fg
4 t-26b, 1 t-26a tanks

Norway has:
5 rifle cos. each with hq rifle squad, 3 plat, with 3 rifle squads, 4 81 mm mortar, 4 7.9 mm hmg, 2 20 mm AA, 2 75mm AA, 3 ski snipers
6 ski cos. each with same units except ski squads in place of rifle squads

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 14
OOB Rarity bug - 8/21/2003 11:37:15 AM   
KG Manstein

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 8/21/2003
From: Springfield MO USA
Status: offline 		Thought I would reply to this thread since I came across a bug some months ago regarding the OOB rarity factors. The AI buys units based partly off of the rarity number found in the radio code. A 0 is supposed to be common, 1 is less common, 2 is rare and 3 is a special case. I believe that the opposite is actually true, that a 0 is rare and 2 is common.
I discovered this a few months back when I set up a battle between the US and German forces in June 44. The German AI seemed to like to pick Pz-III's for its tanks and would buy very few Pz-IV's when history indicates that it should be the opposite. Curious, I opened the OOB editor and looked at the rarity factors for the German tanks. The Pz-III's available in 44 had a rarity of 2 while the Pz-IV's had a rarity of 0 which is what one would expect.
Following this I set up a few test with altered OOB's (setting all but one tank type to 2's for instance) and set up various battles against the AI so I could see what it would buy. My conclusions were that the AI buys more 2's that 1's and more 1's than 0's, leading me to believe that the rarity factors are backwards.
The solution would be to change the code (unlikely, I know) or to change every unit with a rarity code of 0 to a 2 and vice versa. This will result in the AI buying more historical forces in generated battles and campaigns.
I have also checked this out in SPMBT and the same problem excists in that game, leading me to believe this bug has been around since the beginning.
Hopefully this knowledge will help in ironing out any AI purchase problems.

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 15
- 8/21/2003 6:33:29 PM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		KG, no, trust me the radio codes are NOT backwards!!! It might have seemed that way, but this code has been the same for ALL versions of Steel Panthers, since the beginning!!!!!

Warhorse

_____________________________

Mike Amos

Meine Ehre heißt Treue
www.cslegion.com

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 16
USMC in 8.0 - 8/21/2003 11:25:31 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by RUsco
[B]I can't help with the buying, but you have to check out the U.S. Marines. The 60mm mortar costs more than the 81mm.

Too many mortars in the companies. And the wrong type. There should be 3 tubes of 60mm to each Company. 4 81 mm Mortar were issued to the Battalion Leval.

Also the MG selection is wrong. Each Company should have 6 .30 cal MMG and 6 .30 Cal HMG

This is the braeakdown for the F-series May 1944.

Infantry Battalion
HQ Company
Battalion HQ
Company HQ
81mm Mortar Mortar..........4x81mm Mortar

Rifle Company(x3)...................................................235 men
Company HQ...........3x60mm Mortar.......................53 men
Machine Gun Platoon..6x.30cal LMG, 6x.30HMG .....43 men
Rifle Platon(x3)........................................................46 men

Info from U.S. Marine Corps World War II Divisions, Brigades and Regiments

"Gordon L. Rottman"


Hope this helps. [/B][/QUOTE]

Not to worry, Rusco. Bryan & Wild Bill, with a little help from yours truly, did some revamping of the USMC OOB. I used Rottman's new USMC OOB book, and I think you'll be pleased with the changes for 8.0.

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 17
- 8/22/2003 2:38:54 AM   
KG Manstein

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 8/21/2003
From: Springfield MO USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warhorse
[B]KG, no, trust me the radio codes are NOT backwards!!! It might have seemed that way, but this code has been the same for ALL versions of Steel Panthers, since the beginning!!!!!

Warhorse [/B][/QUOTE]


Warhorse, could you please elaborate. The radio/rarity codes (not the radio portion, just the rarity portion) DO seem backwards but you say they aren't? My contention is that any unit with a 0 code for instance should be more common than a unit with a 2 for instance and thus bought more often by the AI. However when watching what the AI buys. the AI will almost always buy more units with a 2 code than a 0 code.
Here are the results of a few quick tests I threw together this morning to illustrate this :
Note-I chose the Germans to illustrate my point because they have a number of different tank types to choose from at any given time. In addition I did not include heavy tanks, assault guns, tank destroyers, artillery, infantry etc. Only medium tanks are included in my results.


US vs GE
June 44
Meeting Engagement
20,000 buy points for each side
Stock 7.1 OOB's
True troop cost on/Rarity off, all other preferences at default

Test 1
Rarity No. Unit No./Name No. bought by AI
2 183-PzIIIj+ 6
2 184-PzIIIj(s)+ 16
2 212-PzIIIL+ 36
0 30-PzIVh 12

The AI bought 58 tanks with a rarity of 2 and 12 with a rarity of 0

Test 2
Rarity No. Unit No./Name No. bought by AI
2 183-PzIIIj+ 0
2 184-PzIIIj(s)+ 10
2 212-PzIIIL+ 36
0 30-PzIVh 10

46 tanks w/2 and 10 tanks w/0

Test 3
Rarity No. Unit No./Name No. bought by AI
2 183-PzIIIj+ 6
2 184-PzIIIj(s)+ 18
2 212-PzIIIL+ 16
0 30-PzIVh 2

40 tanks w/2 and 2 tanks w/0


Thus it would seem that using the stock 7.1 OOB's the AI buys roughly 4 times as many tanks with a rarity code of 2 than 0. Compare these results to the following:

US vs GE
June 44
Meeting Engagement
20,000 buy points for each side
7.1 OOB's modified using the OOB editor to switch the rarity factors of the tanks.
True troop cost on/Rarity off, all other preferences at default

Test 1
Rarity No. Unit No./Name No. bought by AI
0 183-PzIIIj+ 0
0 184-PzIIIj(s)+ 10
0 212-PzIIIL+ 10
2 30-PzIVh 32

The AI bought 32 tanks with a rarity of 2 and 20 with a rarity of 0

Test 2
Rarity No. Unit No./Name No. bought by AI
0 183-PzIIIj+ 2
0 184-PzIIIj(s)+ 0
0 212-PzIIIL+ 6
2 30-PzIVh 53

53 tanks w/2 and 8 tanks w/0

Test 3
Rarity No. Unit No./Name No. bought by AI
0 183-PzIIIj+ 0
0 184-PzIIIj(s)+ 0
0 212-PzIIIL+ 18
2 30-PzIVh 38

38 tanks w/2 and 18 tanks w/0

Aren't these last 3 results more like what you would expect to see in Normandy in June 1944? Note that to acheive these results all I had to do was change the 0's and 2's in the relevant units radio/rarity code.
Further comments appreciated.

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 18
- 8/22/2003 3:47:09 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Hmm..I did a similar test like KG Manstein...GE vs US, 6/44, 20K points, meeting.

Try 1, type, amount/rarity

Pz-IVH 16/0
Pz-IIIL+ 8/2
Tiger IE (late) 8/2
Stug 40G 19/0
Pzjg-35R(f) 2/2
Stuh 42 6/2
Brummbaer 2/1

So 25 with 0, 18 with 2 and 2 with 1

Try 2:

Stug 40G 12/0
Elefant 2/2
Jagdpanther 2/2

This time 12 with 0 and 4 with 2

Try 3:

Stug 40G 16/0
Elefant 2/2
Jpz-IV/48 2/1
Koeningtiger 4/2

16 with 0, 2 with 1 and 6 with 2

Try 4:

Stug 40G 9/0
Jpz-IV/48 2/1
Koeningtiger 4/2
Brummbaer 3/1

Few tanks, but 9 with 0, 5 with 1 and 4 with 2.

now for the fun part:

Why there are so many and diverse tanks in try 1? Well, I had forgotten to set the rarity..I had _both_ true troop and rarity ON

the other 3 tries..quite boring really, true troop and rarity were off.

And the final catch ;)
These were with 8,0 oob's....

I think the rarity code isn't broken but that the purchase routine needs some tweaking...so send in those test reports.

Why I used 8,0 is that Bryan asked us MC testers to do similar tests with 8,0..I've sent him 36 results so far...and imho there are problems still...

Voriax

_____________________________

Oh God give Me strength to accept those things I cannot change with a firearm!

(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 19
- 8/27/2003 12:34:29 AM   
BruceAZ


Posts: 608
Joined: 10/9/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		[QUOTE=BryanMelvin]Okay, here is the story:

You want to play the Long Campaign or even a single Battle Game verses Spwaw's Computer AI. When the AI selects its TOE you see see things like Ski troops during summer battles during an Assault Battle! Or hoards of Recoiless Rifles or the same old units over and over again depending on which setting is played: Meeting Engagement, Advance, or Assault. -[/QUOTE]


Hi Bryan:

I know that it may too late to fix many of the problems with the AI but these four have been a real headache since 7.0. I am sure there are other characteristics that drive people crazy but to me, these are the worst. Since recent Matrix surveys reveal most SPWAW gamers play against the AI, maybe its time to see if they can be solved:

1. The AI ALWAYS attacks in a very predictable manner. In everything except “Defend”, the AI will always attack between the two farthest Victory Hexes and leads with mounted infantry and recon units. After turn 3, the tanks show up. When the AI starts to lose it races everything to the closest Victory Hex it still controls. You rarely need to worry about your flanks.

2. The AI never uses airborne capability. If we could figure this out it would make a big impact to the game because it would force you to defend your own Victory Hexes against the possibility of airborne assault. It changes the way you plan your attack.

3. The AI planes are always the lowest class or cost. For example, in 7.1, you can always expect to see the old Henschel with an occasional updated aircraft when Germany is the AI. Same with the IJA and the Claude. It would be nice now and then to see the AI throw some real airpower at you. The game would be so such better if we never knew what to expect. The same with artillery. For example, the German AI always uses 75’s and in later periods, rockets. We never see 105’s or 150’s.

4. The difficulty buttons never seem to work for me and I play with everything on including full parity except C &C, which is set to OFF. I always set the AI to 200. When I click on the Battle Difficulty button (HARD), it usually is the smallest force – generally 5 or 6 units and that’s it. The medium seems to offer the most challenge and Easy was too easy. I really like this feature of giving the AI point purchase value to buy but can we add something that allows the AI to upgrade the units purchased to offer a bigger challenge? For example, if we had a HARD button for Equipment and it is set with HARD on the number of points (difficult) then I could expect a force of very heavy armor (the most expensive and in larger quantities). Maybe even a RANDOM button so you never really know what the AI will throw out at you.

Thanks for allowing us the opportunity to comment and offer suggestions. I am still addicted to the game and always enjoy the challenge, as it is best tactical war game out there – period.

Recon
Semper Fi

_____________________________


(in reply to BryanMelvin)
Post #: 20
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