Are subs OP in the newest patches?

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Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/19/2021 9:25:34 AM

bwheatley

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I'm not sure if subs have always been OP as I haven't played as much since launch, but doing a pbem with my buddy Ara and he built around 10 subs. April 41 in total the UK has lost 293 MM & 12 escorts.

It took a couple turns before I realized I can stop convoys to save them, that helped a bit. But for example in the North Atlantic Route i had 18 (before some got sunk) escorts on the NA route, coupled with the full might of the british home fleet which gave a +11% bonus on the battles. Over the 3 turns the subs were on station I did <10 damage all told. In return I lost 3 escorts, and another 10+ MM.

We just hit clear weather in early '41 and my tech is '41 for both detection & convoy escort.

The british empire is out of oil, and almost out of MM.

The UK has bought 1 armor, 2 large corps, and from there mostly supply escorts/MM. My Army is 530, Air 120, Naval 111, Merch 70, Escorts 16.

I mean I could be really bad at the game, but this seems way too OP. Or there is something with having a high enough # of subs that that math is getting out of hand on losses.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/19/2021 2:33:29 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Are you placing escorts in the lanes and using the new sub hunter rules?

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/19/2021 4:23:10 PM

bwheatley

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I have escorts on the convoy routes

Tech

Casualties

Forces

Then I was also putting the full british navy into the convoy route and seeing a +11% which I think said sub hunter, I'll verify when Ara sends back my turn.
We're doing a PBEM game on the matrix servers so you can't go back and see prior turns. :'(

So even with that I'd be lucky if I did 2 damage to a sub, which can then return to base and repair.
I just finally got Iceland opened up so i moved my 2 tact bombers up there to try to keep the northern route free, planes seem to do a much better job hitting subs, rightly so of course.

Please don't take this harshly, your game is awesome, and we look forward to playing Pacific as I've had the itch since after WITP:AE came out ;)

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/19/2021 4:57:55 PM

AlvaroSousa

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So first off putting 16 escorts in a lane doesn't help. They are most efficient at 10 escorts. You can have 11-12 if you take a loss but unless they are filled you put 9-10 then spread the rest out.

It is also 1941 and it seems you really haven't built enough escorts if you have only 16. You should have 30-40 by 1942 enough to fill each lane.
You can build strat bombers with asw tech to place in Greenland and Canada.

WarPlan is a long term strategy game that has a lot of abstract thinking involved. I generally build an escort a turn or at worst every other turn till I have enough to fill my lanes. Also having subhunters spread in lanes + escorts is a good strategy. Place them in the closest lanes first then work your way out. The Battle of the Atlantic is not only about sinking subs but forcing them back to port to repair which means they aren't attacking convoys. It is also about forcing them to take an extra turn to reach that far off convoy lane.

As the UK your main focus from 1939-1942 is convoys and France. If the Axis player builds up a large enough force of subs he can wipe you out like this if you don't protect right. I have played enough games to make sure this system is functioning properly.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/19/2021 5:28:36 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

So first off putting 16 escorts in a lane doesn't help. They are most efficient at 10 escorts. You can have 11-12 if you take a loss but unless they are filled you put 9-10 then spread the rest out.

It is also 1941 and it seems you really haven't built enough escorts if you have only 16. You should have 30-40 by 1942 enough to fill each lane.
You can build strat bombers with asw tech to place in Greenland and Canada.

WarPlan is a long term strategy game that has a lot of abstract thinking involved. I generally build an escort a turn or at worst every other turn till I have enough to fill my lanes. Also having subhunters spread in lanes + escorts is a good strategy. Place them in the closest lanes first then work your way out. The Battle of the Atlantic is not only about sinking subs but forcing them back to port to repair which means they aren't attacking convoys. It is also about forcing them to take an extra turn to reach that far off convoy lane.

As the UK your main focus from 1939-1942 is convoys and France. If the Axis player builds up a large enough force of subs he can wipe you out like this if you don't protect right. I have played enough games to make sure this system is functioning properly.

Thanks for taking the time to explain, and I guess 16 escorts isn't enough. I don't think i really had enough PP to buy strat bombers but i'll have to keep a list of what i've bought so next time i can see what I'm doing wrong ;)

Still 8 months of 41 left so i guess MM & escorts are all i have money for. thank you

Hopefully i've saved myself some headaches when we get to pacific.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/19/2021 5:59:21 PM

AlvaroSousa

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You can still come back. Use the USA also to buy MMs and Escorts.
Most players don't buy patrol groups but I do during the game. Even more reason to now.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/19/2021 11:31:41 PM

sillyflower

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I respectfully totally disagree.

600 PPs get you 2 '39 tech patrol groups, or 15 escorts. The latter are bound to do more damage especially as their tech advances are free. Best of all, they will be on station every turn unlike the PG who have to scurry back and forth chasing the uboats (with the degradation of their bonus to half or zero), never get more effective even if you pay 30 PP per ship per level. Unlike escorts, PGs must scuttle back to port every 3 turns unless you spend 30PP every 3 turns for oilers to refuel the fleet they are in. Escorts don't use up any of your oil.

The only upside for having more PGs would be for surface combat, but frankly the allies should have enough of these anyway and you aren't going to be able to afford PGs and the no. of escorts you will need. I would rather spend my 300 PPs on a mech corps or 5/6ths of a tank xxx any day.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/19/2021 11:35:47 PM >

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/20/2021 2:46:39 PM

AlvaroSousa

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You build escorts 1st of course. I usually build patrol groups in 1941.

Patrol groups serve 3 purposes.
#1 Absorb naval losses
#2 off shore support
#3 protecting convoys

1939-1940 is building a mountain of escorts.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/20/2021 5:03:33 PM

sillyflower

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True, and I may be standing on tactical quicksand by criticizing the build strategy of the person who knows so much more about the game than anyone else, but here goes:

#1 I've never needed extra warships to gain naval supremacy
#2 their contribution to the war with naval support is trivial. You can buy a large inf xxx and 30 LCs for a lot less than a PG , or 120LCs for the price of 1 '41 tech PG and achieve an impact in terms of amphib warfare with either option which is probably worth a lot more than all naval landing support.

Does anyone else build patrol groups or other surface warships?

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/20/2021 10:41:11 PM >

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/20/2021 5:35:41 PM

stjeand

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I have never built a warship other than escorts, MS, and subs as the Axis...and to be honest that is rare as usually I am taking more damage than I am doing and I would rather have a Panzer than 3 subs.
But I am trying harder in the BOA...so we will see.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/20/2021 7:32:38 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Depends on your opponent also. I will go after Allied ships and sink them. If I can destroy your fleet what are you going to support your invasion with.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/20/2021 9:02:58 PM

stjeand

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True...I guess that depends on your luck.

Whenever I use subs to go after a fleet they sink.
Air...well they do a bit better but only if German air.
The Italians needs glasses, as do the gunners on their ships.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/21/2021 7:41:54 AM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Are you placing escorts in the lanes and using the new sub hunter rules?

The new cat and mouse gameplay involves moving as many escorts as possible from one lane to another to maximize the chances of hitting the subs.

Splitting the sub groups to counter this seems the way to go.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/26/2021 5:28:31 PM

abulbulian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You build escorts 1st of course. I usually build patrol groups in 1941.

Patrol groups serve 3 purposes.
#1 Absorb naval losses
#2 off shore support
#3 protecting convoys

1939-1940 is building a mountain of escorts.

Alvaro,

You do mention building escorts and MM with the UK, but they quickly run out of ship building. For example building 10 x MM and 6 x escorts in 39 leaves them with no shipbuilding until spring 1940 (when say MMs built). We both know adding shipyards takes 400 days, thus the UK is limited on how many MM and escorts it can build at start of the game 39-40. So are you building MM and escorts with Canada as they have 15 shipbuilding free?

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/26/2021 7:10:32 PM

stjeand

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Sadly my subs are the opposite.
Then again perhaps it is in the commanding officer.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/26/2021 11:00:55 PM

sillyflower

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I think the answer to the OP's question is

Normally yes but, based on 2 games, not under Admiral stjeand. I haven't noticed any poor tactics from him so I have to assume that the only thing he does wrong is sending out the ones he plays with in his bath, rather than his real ones.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/26/2021 11:43:03 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Yes you run out of shipyards. But you balance your builds. You aren't solving the uboat problem in 1940. You are building up to solve it for 1942 or be crippled. This is part of the strategic thinking. As the Allies you need to plan for the long term game. Building escorts over MMs or MMs over escorts isn't a static answer.

Figure out how man you are losing a turn then counter that roughly. You have room to spare so you want to keep your MMs above a certain threshold. So you aren't building MMs each turn. You build an escort every 2 turns or 2 every 3 turns.

Going for this all out land unit build is going to find you crippled in 1941 vs submarines. I usually build 10-11 total subs and I don't start to lose any until 1943. I play them carefully and strategically.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/27/2021 12:14:40 AM

stjeand

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My bath subs may work better then the game ones for me.

So far my two new games are working more in my favor...But I am sure that will change any moment.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/27/2021 9:59:52 AM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Yes you run out of shipyards. But you balance your builds. You aren't solving the uboat problem in 1940. You are building up to solve it for 1942 or be crippled. This is part of the strategic thinking. As the Allies you need to plan for the long term game. Building escorts over MMs or MMs over escorts isn't a static answer.

Figure out how man you are losing a turn then counter that roughly. You have room to spare so you want to keep your MMs above a certain threshold. So you aren't building MMs each turn. You build an escort every 2 turns or 2 every 3 turns.

Going for this all out land unit build is going to find you crippled in 1941 vs submarines. I usually build 10-11 total subs and I don't start to lose any until 1943. I play them carefully and strategically.

If you are building subs when the allies doing the all-out France thing, I doubt the game will get to '41.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/27/2021 2:21:43 PM

AlvaroSousa

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The thing is I hear players saying France is too hard and Russia is balanced. How can both be true? If France is too hard and you are getting crushed then Russia you should be getting crushed.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/27/2021 4:39:18 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The thing is I hear players saying France is too hard and Russia is balanced. How can both be true? If France is too hard and you are getting crushed then Russia you should be getting crushed.

Simple. Experience and Terrain.

Experience: Red Army has 30% experience vs 50% experience for UK units. The strategy is simple. Let the German units reducing their effectiveness by attacking French units. And then launch deadly counter attacks. I have never seen any counter attack shattering German units in 1941 with a Red Army at 30% experience.

Terrain: In USSR there is space to maneuver and to let retreat paths. In France, a narrow corridor can be easily defend.

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/27/2021 9:59:26 PM

sillyflower

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Alvaro: We have a really good test of the 'all in France'strategy with mirror games between stjeand and comadrajakorp

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RE: Are subs OP in the newest patches? - 3/27/2021 11:08:30 PM

bwheatley

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The next game Ara & I start I'll be on top of the allies getting MM. Fool me once, we quit the game we were just playing because 5+ turns in a row sending 100 Oil to Britian from the US didn't get there.
Britian was out of oil for 10+ turns.
I must have done something wrong or not be understanding some nuanced rule, we'll see if next game its ok.

< Message edited by bwheatley -- 3/27/2021 11:11:53 PM >

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Are subs OP in the newest patches?