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RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 7:37:53 AM

Hanny

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Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Much more extensive than I had ever imagined. +1 Really illuminates and expands my conception of this conflict. Definitely merits more research on my part.

I had previously assumed that the nature of a locked down security state would be seen as too risky and dissuade the majority of people from trying to infiltrate into Soviet controlled territory (i.e, the probability of being caught and killed would be perceived as too high).

Your welcome, always a red letter day when you find something new, good luck with your inquiry, perhaps so as to not clutter the thread,
use pm?

one last bit, there was a war crimes tribunal and US commission into mass executions by Russia of Nationlists in the days leading up to June 22, there were 4 LW pilots executed at Lowe pre war along with them so we know not all recon sorties went well.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/25/2021 7:41:53 AM >

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Post #: 31

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 8:49:03 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Much more extensive than I had ever imagined. +1 Really illuminates and expands my conception of this conflict. Definitely merits a reassessment and more research on my part.

I had previously assumed that the nature of a locked down security state would be seen as too risky and dissuade the majority of people from trying to infiltrate (or participate in local cells) into Soviet controlled territory (i.e., the probability of being caught, tortured, and killed would be perceived as too high).

The Soviet Union was actually more porous than often assumed. The weak spot was the Comintern and the NKVD's willingness to recruit non-Soviets. In the main that paid off for them in terms of penetration of other states partly by those who worked as actual spies but also Commnunists simply prepared to pass information. But other intelligence agencies could use as a means to send perfectly plausible individuals back into the USSR.

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Post #: 32

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 9:12:00 AM

Light4bettor

Posts: 83
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Loki, if I follow correctly, some of the non-Soviets recruited by the USSR would sent outside the USSR to spread disinformation and whatnot, and a portion of those would be turned into double agents by the Germans and sent back into the USSR?

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 33

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 9:50:08 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

messier than that to be honest.

Some Communists fled to the USSR (a lot of Italians and Spanish for eg), were recruited by the NKVD and then returned to the west. You then got people like the UK Cambridge Spy ring who stayed in the West, often never joined the CP, and only fled to the USSR when they were exposed.

So in the main the Soviets gained, they ended up with very good practical intelligence at the level of individual factories in Germany (so they could track for eg the serial numbers of planes/tanks sent for repair) on the one hand or US/UK atomic secrets at the other.

The problem was not everyone who fled to the USSR were what they seemed. Now the NKVD was paranoid, always had the mindset that it was better to shoot someone innocent than allow some guilty to survive etc (which is why many foreign communists got caught up in the purges), but enough functioned for long enough for a decent flow of information to come out. Add on Soviet officials who were prepared to spy (for whatever reason) and, as ever, diplomatic cover was used for a fair degree of spying (Fitzroy McLean's Eastern Approaches has a lot on what he got up to in the mid-30s in Moscow and then in Central Asia). So add all that together, the boring material that could be discerned from the local newspapers (amazing how good they are for intelligence agencies) and so on, and it all added up.

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Post #: 34

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 10:04:21 AM

Light4bettor

Posts: 83
Joined: 1/3/2020
Status: offline

Thanks Loki,

Learning a lot. Thanks. Bringing this period of history to life in my mind and exposing its contours and depth. And of course, the unspeakable horrors, but also the humanity of it. (dont mean humanity in the humane sense, but the participants are made more real). Time for some tea and crackers! lol j/k.

< Message edited by Light4bettor -- 3/25/2021 10:09:01 AM >

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 35

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 11:00:30 AM

teddybbeer

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,

Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post

, numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 36

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 12:16:27 PM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,

Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post , numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.

wiki is not a reliable source, you would have been taught this at school and told not to use it as a cite.

In this case for the following reasons, wiki relates only post Declaration of war activity by Finnish units, so does not cover any pre war activity, for that you need to look at German 1941 acounts in which Abwehr equips 100 Officers and OR with Russian uniforms, coms and other equipment and employs them pre war, is sends them in two groups pre war from from Pellingi Island to Kumna Bay, one group is spotted and turns back, they later parachute in after war is declared and operate in Augviidu Tallinn, Narva regions.

I do like the notion that Nazi propaganda was so far forward looking tho.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/25/2021 12:30:43 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 12:28:25 PM

Templer_12

Posts: 1700
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 38

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 12:31:48 PM

daft

Posts: 406
Joined: 5/18/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.

Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it�s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,

I'm not going to argue you point, but be very wary with Kurowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af59LYC8BFs

https://www.academia.edu/37429738/The_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_

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Post #: 39

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 12:34:00 PM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...

A hot looking women?.........

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Templer_12)

Post #: 40

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 12:43:55 PM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daft

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.

Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it�s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,

I'm not going to argue you point, but be very wary with Kurowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af59LYC8BFs

https://www.academia.edu/37429738/The_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_

But he is no Paul Carrel tho is he, nor is a Spielberger or Jentz for different reasons, but if you know of an authors works with more first hand accounts from German participants, I�d love to know about them.

Ta for the links.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/25/2021 12:44:49 PM >

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

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Post #: 41

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 12:51:34 PM

daft

Posts: 406
Joined: 5/18/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: daft

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.

Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it�s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,

I'm not going to argue you point, but be very wary with Kurowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af59LYC8BFs

https://www.academia.edu/37429738/The_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_

But he is no Paul Carrel tho is he, nor is a Spielberger or Jentz for different reasons, but if you know of an authors works with more first hand accounts from German participants, I�d love to know about them.

Ta for the links.

Not overloaded with first hand accounts, but the later Glantz books are good, especially his "trilogy" on Stalingrad.

David Stahel's books are also well worth a read. Especially his Soldoers of Barbarossa if you want first hand accounts.

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Post #: 42

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 12:56:34 PM

Templer_12

Posts: 1700
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...

A hot looking women?.........

You'd have to think about it. At least she would be less complicated than WitE 2.

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 43

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 1:12:22 PM

teddybbeer

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

wiki is not a reliable source, you would have been taught this at school and told not to use it as a cite.

In this case for the following reasons, wiki relates only post Declaration of war activity by Finnish units, so does not cover any pre war activity, for that you need to look at German 1941 acounts in which Abwehr equips 100 Officers and OR with Russian uniforms, coms and other equipment and employs them pre war, is sends them in two groups pre war from from Pellingi Island to Kumna Bay, one group is spotted and turns back, they later parachute in after war is declared and operate in Augviidu Tallinn, Narva regions.

I do like the notion that Nazi propaganda was so far forward looking tho.

Its Kurtna bay and Aegviidu.. thats nowhere near to neighter Tallinn or Narva (well ~50kms from Tallinn..

). Unfortunately most of the information about Erna group are in estonian language and i have still less then 10 posts so i cannot post pictures/links, so directing to wikipedia seemed obvious. It is you dear sir who have been fallen victim of Soviet propaganda

... less than hour to go?

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 44

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 1:13:23 PM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...

A hot looking women?.........

You'd have to think about it. At least she would be less complicated than WitE 2.

LOL.....there's no certainty in that

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WitE Tester
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Post #: 45

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 1:16:18 PM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,

Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post , numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.

wiki is not a reliable source, you would have been taught this at school and told not to use it as a cite.

In this case for the following reasons, wiki relates only post Declaration of war activity by Finnish units, so does not cover any pre war activity, for that you need to look at German 1941 acounts in which Abwehr equips 100 Officers and OR with Russian uniforms, coms and other equipment and employs them pre war, is sends them in two groups pre war from from Pellingi Island to Kumna Bay, one group is spotted and turns back, they later parachute in after war is declared and operate in Augviidu Tallinn, Narva regions.

I do like the notion that Nazi propaganda was so far forward looking tho.

The Estonian sites date the Operation Erna to July, and there are no mentions about Soviet uniforms: http://www.estonica.org/en/Erna_group_and_Erna_battalions/

Any pre-war activity from Pellinki island would probably be documented by the Finns, but can't really find any such documents.

You're absolutely right about Wiki not being a reliable source (I was once reading the wiki article about Iron Maiden, and at that moment it was an Italian rock band with Vince Rhames as the lead vocalist). But it's also difficult to decide which sources to trust since any propaganda can be nullified with some more counter-propaganda :)

But anyway, since this is the release discussion thread, I was wandering what might be the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud in inches and is the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine being tracked in the game?

PS. Really excited about the release! Clicking refresh relentlessly on the product page! Huge thanks for the whole development team!

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 3/25/2021 1:18:29 PM >

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 46

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:32:44 PM

ranknfile

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/9/2021
From: New Orleans
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

...

Clicking refresh relentlessly on the product page!

You should try not to be so impatient ....
.... I just happened to be passing by, that's all...
... however, perhaps I'll stick around for a bit.

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 47

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:38:11 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

10:36am here in Pennslyvania... T-24 minutes.

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Post #: 48

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:40:34 PM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...

A hot looking women?.........

You'd have to think about it. At least she would be less complicated than WitE 2.

Maybe I might have to think about, but then I�m an old fart, of course she won�t have a volume control or an off switch, 2 very bad bugs in the Eve model......

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to Templer_12)

Post #: 49

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:42:10 PM

Firebri

Posts: 291
Joined: 3/9/2011
From: Bristol
Status: offline

It's 14:40 here in the UK lol

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Post #: 50

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:42:46 PM

ranknfile

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/9/2021
From: New Orleans
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi folks, I've checked in with the production and marketing teams today as we finalize everything with the store setup and do our last QA steps. The most likely release timing is around 11AM US Eastern time / 3PM UK time tomorrow. Obviously that is dependent on many factors but that's our best guess at this point.

I think by "best guess" what Mr. Rutins meant was "this is the definite time of release, hold me to it, if it doesn't come to pass feel free to storm my castle with pitchforks and torches."

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 51

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:52:19 PM

Uriah

Posts: 9
Joined: 1/12/2011
Status: offline

Now 10.50pm 25/3 here in Western Australia. Looks like a 26/3 delivery for me. But it gives me time to read the rules again in bed (all 500 odd pages) and then rise tomorrow to begin the onslaught. No doubt to restart in a few hours when I realise I have done everything wrong.

(in reply to ranknfile)

Post #: 52

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:53:50 PM

Templer_12

Posts: 1700
Joined: 1/5/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebri

It's 14:40 here in the UK lol

Since January 1st, 2021 things have been going differently over there on your island.
Relax, make yourself a cup of tea, dust off your Prince Charles portraits, water your roses...

(in reply to Firebri)

Post #: 53

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 2:58:49 PM

Walloc

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

But he is no Paul Carrel tho is he, nor is a Spielberger or Jentz for different reasons, but if you know of an authors works with more first hand accounts from German participants, I�d love to know about them.

Ta for the links.

When people like Roman T�ppel tells you some thing, i would listen.
To quote from Wiki:

Former soldiers interviewed by Kurowski for his books noted that their accounts, as published, contained considerable distortion and embellishments and in many instances non-existent. One soldier, Rolf Kliemann, suggested improvements to Kurowski but these were ignored. Kliemann stated that "Kurowski just filled the facts with fanciful tales..."[34]

< Message edited by Walloc -- 3/25/2021 2:59:04 PM >

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 54

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 3:00:28 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
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From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

We're very close to setting the release live...

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 55

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 3:01:48 PM

Remmes

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/11/2011
From: NL
Status: offline

Ready to download: bring it on!

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Post #: 56

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 3:03:45 PM

dudefan

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/26/2021
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where is it

i want it

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Post #: 57

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 3:04:26 PM

ranknfile

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/9/2021
From: New Orleans
Status: offline

I'm all "tingly" - soon I will be 66 years old, yet I'm as excited as a "yute" on Christmas Day!

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Post #: 58

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 3:05:35 PM

gekkoguy35

Posts: 100
Joined: 2/29/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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F5! F5! F5!

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Post #: 59

RE: 3:00 a.m - 3/25/2021 3:06:38 PM

Remmes

Posts: 285
Joined: 2/11/2011
From: NL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranknfile

I'm all "tingly" - soon I will be 66 years old, yet I'm as excited as a "yute" on Christmas Day!

That reminds me of stories I read about German soldiers feeling the jitters with the clock ticking towards 0315 am...waiting for the opening artillery barrage to start Barbarossa.

(in reply to ranknfile)

Post #: 60