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Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 8:10:08 AM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

I don't have any experience on WitW so I'm a complete beginner in WitE2 air war. I studied the results from AI assisted German turn 1, and it seems like the GE bombers are in trouble with the automated set of air directives. There's many cases where full squadrons of bombers are annihilated completely (see picture). Also there seems to be quite many recon aircraft shot down during the first week, usually around 100.

What would be a good approach to start fiddling with the air directives on turn 1, to protect the bombers and prevent these catastrophic air combats? I think historically the Germans lost less than 200 airframes during the first week? They might have been just lucky though :D

I tried to require escorts for the bombing sorties, but of course majority of the sorties didn't get executed due to lower range of the escort aircraft.

I also tried to run some air superiority missions early on the week before the bombing runs, but those missions seemed to be ineffective. By the way, why is the AS mission range and area so low? I'm guessing this is also dependant on the fighter ranges? 5x5 seems to be the maximum area for Bf-109 groups, and they can't fly further than 4 hexes from the base to cover that kind of area. Air superiority seems to be thus ineffective to cover the bombers. I have however ran into cases where Soviet planes have intercepted unescorted bombers really close to the front, should an AS mission prevent this kind of interceptions?

Anyway, I'd really appreciate a bunch of tips for the air doctrines when trying to protect long range bombers. Should I run escorted sorties on first days of the week and long sorties after that? How to make air superiority missions effective? How to move fighters to bases closer to the front manually, to get best range for them?

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RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 8:27:53 AM

Jajusha

Posts: 249
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline

What i did was to load up Road to Leningrad (just AGN) set up orders, Save and experiment with different tactics. Then load the save and run again
I tried:

1) Run long range airfield bombing missions on day 1, and short range on day 2, 9000 alt. Got 100+ casualties on my side, 500ish on the soviet side

2) Short range airfield bombing missions on day 1, 1000 alt. Got 70ish casualties on my side, 500ish on the soviet side

3) Bomb all days of the week, 9000 alt, short and long range.. Got massive casualties on my side, 450ish on the soviet side

4) Bomb airfields only on day 1 (1 ground combat order per airfield), 7000 alt, 26x50kg bomb layout, all inside escort range, 2 strikes per airfield per day. 15 casualties on my side, 650ish on the soviet soviet. In fact, this was so sucesfull that my intel showed all soviet groups in the hit airfields with 0 airplanes

My conclusion so far was:
Turn 1 D1 airfield bomb should be the go to tactic. Airfield bombing outside of D1 and i get bigger casualties on german side, with no big return
Going lower then 7k is opening yourself up to flak
26X50kg bombs is the ideal.
If you set up more then 2 strikes per airfield then strikes 3 and forward meet the airfield already empty

Going to try some more, will post the results

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 2

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 8:47:50 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

generally on T1, only hit airfields on D1, you might risk some D2 around Odessa but the bonus drops off rapidly and the VVS recovers its functionality

don't over commit either via intensity, days or size of target box. Once air groups have started to build up mileaage, operational losses can be brutal

I wouldn't run AS at all.

Of importance, you get a second go at the VVS in the ground phase and you should keep a lot of fighters back for this under a GS mission.

First, if you over-run an airbase, damaged planes are destroyed, so those planes you damaged on D1 can be more easily destroyed this way. Might be worth planning some of your ground moves with an eye to the larger Soviet airbases to maximise this.

Second, the VVS will contest GS missions, so you can use your fighters very effectively in this role around the border. Apart from vs SW Front you don't really need GS to win the actual ground battles, its more it sets up a very favourable situation to cull the VVS - oh and you can double dip re the above. Fighters damaged in a GS action are now sat at an airbase waiting for your ground troops to arrive.

So best way to think of it is the airphase is just your first step, its not the end of the process.

You can readily add 1,000+ destroyed using this part of the game turn.

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Post #: 3

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 9:17:31 AM

Titan

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline

I love WITE..Hated WITW due to the hard to understand Airwar system and it was to quirky for me, Its the one feature about this game that is making me hesitate on going for it, just dont want air system.Managing the Airwar in WITE is rather simple

< Message edited by Titan -- 3/26/2021 9:35:17 AM >

(in reply to Jajusha)

Post #: 4

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 9:23:49 AM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jajusha
If you set up more then 2 strikes per airfield then strikes 3 and forward meet the airfield already empty

Thanks Jajusha, all good info there!

How do you set up a limit on strikes per airfield? Do you make a directive for each airfield separately (area 1x1), or just limit the intensity to match the amount of airfields in the directive area?

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
generally on T1, only hit airfields on D1, you might risk some D2 around Odessa but the bonus drops off rapidly and the VVS recovers its functionality

don't over commit either via intensity, days or size of target box. Once air groups have started to build up mileaage, operational losses can be brutal

I wouldn't run AS at all.

Thanks Loki!

So there's a surprise bonus only on D1 in Grand Campaign? Overruns are a familiar strategy from WitE. What kind of situations would Air Superiority missions be useful in?

Just figured out the intensity, it's just a general guide for the strike numbers... which might be an answer to my question on strike limits above :)

I tried to change the required AC numbers to be a bit lower at least for recon sorties, but the recon AOGs didn't seem to follow my orders... maybe it's best to play around with the air directives on a small map just like Jajusha has done just to learn the ropes.

Seems like the drop tanks really increase fighter range a lot, I reckon including them in fighter loadouts would make escorts more powerful during the opening turns when the panzers are running full steam away from Luftwaffe airfields?

(in reply to Jajusha)

Post #: 5

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 9:27:30 AM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

I love WITE..Hated WITW and unfortunatley they are using the same model for Airwar of WITW so complicated and hard to get the grips with it is the one feature that has stopped me from purchasing this game. The system in my opinion is to quirky

It seems quite overwhelming at first, but I'd say the AI Air assist does a decent job, and it's pretty easy to gradually take more control and start adding your own directives in the mix.

All the air war options aren't that intuitive when you first jump in but I'm sure at least I am going to appreciate all the small details once I get the hang of it :)

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 3/26/2021 9:28:24 AM >

(in reply to Titan)

Post #: 6

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 9:40:34 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jajusha
If you set up more then 2 strikes per airfield then strikes 3 and forward meet the airfield already empty

Thanks Jajusha, all good info there!

How do you set up a limit on strikes per airfield? Do you make a directive for each airfield separately (area 1x1), or just limit the intensity to match the amount of airfields in the directive area?

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
generally on T1, only hit airfields on D1, you might risk some D2 around Odessa but the bonus drops off rapidly and the VVS recovers its functionality

don't over commit either via intensity, days or size of target box. Once air groups have started to build up mileaage, operational losses can be brutal

I wouldn't run AS at all.

Thanks Loki!

So there's a surprise bonus only on D1 in Grand Campaign? Overruns are a familiar strategy from WitE. What kind of situations would Air Superiority missions be useful in?

Just figured out the intensity, it's just a general guide for the strike numbers... which might be an answer to my question on strike limits above :)

I tried to change the required AC numbers to be a bit lower at least for recon sorties, but the recon AOGs didn't seem to follow my orders... maybe it's best to play around with the air directives on a small map just like Jajusha has done just to learn the ropes.

Seems like the drop tanks really increase fighter range a lot, I reckon including them in fighter loadouts would make escorts more powerful during the opening turns when the panzers are running full steam away from Luftwaffe airfields?

Strike number is in the air directive details

the way it works depends a bit on the AD and target. But lets stick to airbase bombing. You set a square and it contains 4 air bases, auto will mean the AI routine guesses how many missions will be needed (it may discount some if it finds the airbase empty or out of target) using the intensity as a basic guide, but if you set the mission D1 only and 8 strikes you are telling it to try and hit each airbase twice.

AS is a bit of a specialist choice in WiTE2 (compared to WiTW), you can often rely more on auto-intercepts or setting your fighters to escort GS. AS are useful if you think they will try air transports or to put your fighters over their airbases - but, both sides have short range fighters and imperfect recon (so this is a very situational option)

drop tanks are a bit of a double edged sword to be honest. Much more than in WiTW, air losses from operational causes escalate rapidly with poor weather and/or air groups generating a lot of air miles. The drop tanks may be essential to reach a given hex - the wise question is do you want to reach that hex?

I think this will be the mechanism that catches people out the quickest, with the Allies in WiTW, fuel tanks were almost always added to your loadouts almost by default, that shouldn't be the case in WiTE2. They are a situational tool not a default one. But basically range can kill.

edit - its near impossible to keep air cover over the spearheads from T2-T4, apart maybe in very specific sectors. This should be taken account of by the Soviet player, even I-153s can be useful when the LW is struggling to equip its new airfields. In general, as the axis you have to concentrate and in the early turns air cover will lag behind, as the Soviets in the early war in many ways you want to be where the LW isn't.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/26/2021 9:45:20 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 9:45:21 AM

Titan

Posts: 482
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: new Zealand
Status: offline

To much for me..tried so hard to like WITW, more time was spent trying to come to grips with the Airwar than anything else..perhaps it was more me than anything. I just liked it better in WITE..it was simple and easy to manage this system feels like another game to learn all together.

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 8

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 10:43:07 AM

Delaware

Posts: 212
Joined: 8/6/2013
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I agree. This really gives me pause. That sounds like quadruple the workload to process a turn

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Post #: 9

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 10:49:53 AM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Delaware

I agree. This really gives me pause. That sounds like quadruple the workload to process a turn

It's zero workload if you use the AI assist which is decent enough. In WitE1 you couldn't automate ground attacks etc.

This is the kind of system I would make if I was developing games: give the option for a decent hands-off solution, but if they player wants to dig deep, they can do it.

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 3/26/2021 10:52:05 AM >

(in reply to Delaware)

Post #: 10

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 11:07:42 AM

Jajusha

Posts: 249
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline

It's a min max thing, i hope it doesn't discourage anyone.

You can use a 10 range box with auto settings and get 500 soviet plane casualties, or you can spend 10 extra minutes to min max it and reach the 600. I think it's a good system that caters to both the more casual player and to those that want to squeeze everything from the game.

I'll setup up a small guide for both the auto and the min max later on.

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 11

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 1:21:51 PM

carlkay58

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline

Turn 1 is always the most complicated for the Axis. Starting in turn 2 you can set up 'standard' air directives that you just change the location each turn to keep up with the front line. You can even disable an Air Directive without deleting it if you need/want to rest a turn or two (say during bad weather). Using AOGs instead of individual squadrons (as in WitW) is also much easier.

(in reply to Jajusha)

Post #: 12

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 2:11:17 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan
To much for me..tried so hard to like WITW, more time was spent trying to come to grips with the Airwar than anything else..perhaps it was more me than anything. I just liked it better in WITE..it was simple and easy to manage this system feels like another game to learn all together.

This is exactly why you have the AI Air Assist in WITE2. We listened to the folks in WITW who didn't want to manage the Air game in details. Honestly the air game, even in detail with the AOGs, is much easier to manage than in WITW. With the Air Assist, it's trivial to manage.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Titan)

Post #: 13

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 2:12:26 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Delaware
I agree. This really gives me pause. That sounds like quadruple the workload to process a turn

Please see my reply above and also my post here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4988643

The air war in WITE2 is pretty much as easy or as involved as you want it to be. There's no reason to be deterred by it.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Delaware)

Post #: 14

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 2:19:14 PM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

It's a min max thing, i hope it doesn't discourage anyone.

You can use a 10 range box with auto settings and get 500 soviet plane casualties, or you can spend 10 extra minutes to min max it and reach the 600. I think it's a good system that caters to both the more casual player and to those that want to squeeze everything from the game.

I'll setup up a small guide for both the auto and the min max later on.

I'm not that much looking for more Soviet casualties, main worry are the unescorted bombing runs that are bound to happen with the 10 range boxes. I achieved best results on the Leningrad scenario by reducing the intensity (or just calculating 1-2 runs per airfield), changing the bomb loadout to 50kg and adding drop tanks to fighters to be able to reach more airfields with escorts. Haven't played around with altitude at all yet.

I managed to get pretty good result with only 2 directives covering the north (Liepaja & Riga) and east (Kaunas & Vilnius) and splitting the Luftflotte 1 aircraft evenly on these two tasks.

Every time I tried to bomb anything out of escort range, or raise the intensity too high (fighters get too fatigued or accumulate too much airmiles), it resulted into unescorted bombing sorties that usually lead to catastrophic results.

(in reply to Jajusha)

Post #: 15

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 2:26:28 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I don't have any experience on WitW so I'm a complete beginner in WitE2 air war. I studied the results from AI assisted German turn 1, and it seems like the GE bombers are in trouble with the automated set of air directives. There's many cases where full squadrons of bombers are annihilated completely (see picture). Also there seems to be quite many recon aircraft shot down during the first week, usually around 100.

What would be a good approach to start fiddling with the air directives on turn 1, to protect the bombers and prevent these catastrophic air combats? I think historically the Germans lost less than 200 airframes during the first week? They might have been just lucky though :D

I tried to require escorts for the bombing sorties, but of course majority of the sorties didn't get executed due to lower range of the escort aircraft.

I also tried to run some air superiority missions early on the week before the bombing runs, but those missions seemed to be ineffective. By the way, why is the AS mission range and area so low? I'm guessing this is also dependant on the fighter ranges? 5x5 seems to be the maximum area for Bf-109 groups, and they can't fly further than 4 hexes from the base to cover that kind of area. Air superiority seems to be thus ineffective to cover the bombers. I have however ran into cases where Soviet planes have intercepted unescorted bombers really close to the front, should an AS mission prevent this kind of interceptions?

Anyway, I'd really appreciate a bunch of tips for the air doctrines when trying to protect long range bombers. Should I run escorted sorties on first days of the week and long sorties after that? How to make air superiority missions effective? How to move fighters to bases closer to the front manually, to get best range for them?

1. Don't fly un-escorted bomber missions, even on T1 for Germans.
(Don't bomb past fighter coverage, use drop tanks on key hexes but dont over do it)

2. Learn the Air System and get away from the Air AI. You will find once you take the time to learn the Air war it is "really" very easy. But again that could be just me.

3. I don't do Superiority missions on the first turn. I just escort the bombers.

4. I don't fly recon the first turn. But if you do I found in my test that flying 18,000ft one sortie for a large area(7-9 hexes) on 3 specific days(Mon, Weds, and Sun) with mass aircraft (~40-80 airframes) gets the job done well with less losses for recon. Operation losses will eat into everything you do.

(in reply to Nix77)

Post #: 16

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 2:34:40 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Delaware

I agree. This really gives me pause. That sounds like quadruple the workload to process a turn

Another option is to have whomever you are playing in a "Head-2-Head game" both agree to use the "Air AI". That way the computer does the Air war and the two players can concentrate on the ground war.

I really recommend putting the time in to learn the Air War to anyone that is serious about this game.

(in reply to Delaware)

Post #: 17

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 2:53:22 PM

EddyBear81

Posts: 153
Joined: 2/10/2012
From: Lille, France
Status: offline

One useful way to look at it is to start with the AI Assist which does a reasonable job, AND THEN review the air directives and adjust as you see fit...
...for example, adjust bomb loads here, target a specific rail hub there, change altitude elsewhere...

In the end, it does not really matter much in my opinion (and I spent loads of time with WiTW), but the fact that the system is "open" lets you adjust what could otherwise be endless frustration (eg. "why are my BF-109 not intercepting", etc...)

So a great feature to bridge the gap between WiTE1 over-simplification and WiTW over-complexity

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 18

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 3:28:11 PM

squatter

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

I'm having trouble establishing the total enemy airframe losses on the Air Execution Phase Summary. I can see a total for enemy lost in air combat, but no total for enemy losses included those destroyed on the ground - any pointers much appreciated

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Post #: 19

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 3:57:43 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

should show in the losses chart?

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Post #: 20

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 4:08:39 PM

squatter

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

Thanks Loki, yes, found the number in there.

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Post #: 21

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 4:10:33 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

note you can also filter the losses chart by phase (similar on the metrics screens), there are times when that can help if you are trying to work out when something is happening - such as unexpectedly high operational losses etc

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Post #: 22

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 4:15:54 PM

squatter

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

Thanks - that's also v useful.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 23

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 4:52:19 PM

Repsol

Posts: 191
Joined: 1/20/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

I'm having trouble establishing the total enemy airframe losses on the Air Execution Phase Summary. I can see a total for enemy lost in air combat, but no total for enemy losses included those destroyed on the ground - any pointers much appreciated

I also miss that info on this particular screen. The space is there...to fit in lost/damaged on ground. That info should be there imo. Why be forced to look at another screen to find it ?

I would also have liked it if you could click on the seperate directives in the type/target column to be taken to the map with that particular directive actively shown...ready for tweaking (for the next turn)....if you would like to change some settings right a away that you belive would improve the outcome of that directive for the next turn.

It would be easier to be able to do it right away from the summary screen compared to having to wait until next turns air phase to do it.

(in reply to squatter)

Post #: 24

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 7:17:45 PM

Bamilus

Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I don't have any experience on WitW so I'm a complete beginner in WitE2 air war. I studied the results from AI assisted German turn 1, and it seems like the GE bombers are in trouble with the automated set of air directives. There's many cases where full squadrons of bombers are annihilated completely (see picture). Also there seems to be quite many recon aircraft shot down during the first week, usually around 100.

What would be a good approach to start fiddling with the air directives on turn 1, to protect the bombers and prevent these catastrophic air combats? I think historically the Germans lost less than 200 airframes during the first week? They might have been just lucky though :D

I tried to require escorts for the bombing sorties, but of course majority of the sorties didn't get executed due to lower range of the escort aircraft.

I also tried to run some air superiority missions early on the week before the bombing runs, but those missions seemed to be ineffective. By the way, why is the AS mission range and area so low? I'm guessing this is also dependant on the fighter ranges? 5x5 seems to be the maximum area for Bf-109 groups, and they can't fly further than 4 hexes from the base to cover that kind of area. Air superiority seems to be thus ineffective to cover the bombers. I have however ran into cases where Soviet planes have intercepted unescorted bombers really close to the front, should an AS mission prevent this kind of interceptions?

Anyway, I'd really appreciate a bunch of tips for the air doctrines when trying to protect long range bombers. Should I run escorted sorties on first days of the week and long sorties after that? How to make air superiority missions effective? How to move fighters to bases closer to the front manually, to get best range for them?

1. Don't fly un-escorted bomber missions, even on T1 for Germans.
(Don't bomb past fighter coverage, use drop tanks on key hexes but dont over do it)

2. Learn the Air System and get away from the Air AI. You will find once you take the time to learn the Air war it is "really" very easy. But again that could be just me.

3. I don't do Superiority missions on the first turn. I just escort the bombers.

4. I don't fly recon the first turn. But if you do I found in my test that flying 18,000ft one sortie for a large area(7-9 hexes) on 3 specific days(Mon, Weds, and Sun) with mass aircraft (~40-80 airframes) gets the job done well with less losses for recon. Operation losses will eat into everything you do.

What settings do you use for escort? A specific number in ReqAC? And do you disable partial escort?

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(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)

Post #: 25

RE: Escorting bombers and air superiority - 3/26/2021 11:14:21 PM

Jajusha

Posts: 249
Joined: 12/21/2010
Status: offline

Ok, so, I've been testing the dos and don't using AGN and it's more limited scope.

Hope this can dispel some fears and show how flexible this system can actually be...

First test, on the left side of the screenshot, is a fully personalized strike, i spent around 7 minutes setting it up to my liking
Altitude 7k
Stikes only on D1
1 Ground attack order per airfield
1 strike per airfield, except airfields with 100 or more soviet planes, where it gets 2 strikes.
First hit all airfields in Escort range.
Then hit fighter fielding airbases outside of escort range
Then hit remaining airfields

Second test, as per right side of screenshot, are rough manual orders that you can set up in less then a minute
Altitude 7k
Stikes only on D1
2 Size 10 boxes

Results?
The personalized strike scored me 880 soviet planes, 39 casualties on my side
The auto 10 size box strikes scored me 800 soviet planes, 45 casualties on my side