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Errors in Vistula to Berlin

 
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Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/25/2021 5:53:49 PM   
AdmiralHalsey

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 3/25/2021
Status: offline 		Upon opening the game the first thing I did was take a peak at our 1945 game, and have a look through the order of battle.

The production screen took me entirely by suprise. While the Germans did produce 90 Ferdinand Tank destroyers [Well, converted] I was currently allocating zero. Instead I did have a single surviving group of its precursor, the Elepant, which is no small wonder giving the game cheerily informed me Germany had produced over three hundred of them so far.

Given this is not a particularly unknown tank and the depth of historical research that has gone into this game, the fact I was able to pick out this error at a glance has me slightly concerned.
Post #: 1
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/25/2021 7:39:41 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Our understanding is that 90 Ferdinands were built and deployed in 1943, and that late in 1943 the survivors were upgraded to the Elefant. In the long campaign, that's what happens. As far as the Vistula scenario is concerned, it looks like the part of the code that calculates what has been produced to date doesn't show the correct number of Elefants that were built (actually converted). This has no effect since the value is over the max so no more will be built. As for the number available at the start of the scenario, the one company available does seem to be correct. So basically there is a display error in the number built, but it doesn't impact anything. The long campaign will have the correct number built.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to AdmiralHalsey)
Post #: 2
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/25/2021 8:01:18 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline 		91 Ferdinands were built, 1 prototype by Alkett and 90 production models by Nibelungenwerke 89 of these saw action starting at Kursk. The prototype and a single production model were retained by Kummersdorf for testing.

The change of name had nothing to do with the modifications which took place between January and March 1944, the change of name became official in May 1944 therefore until mid to late May 1944 they were still Ferdinands and in some cases they were still called Ferdinands as late as July 1944.

Between the 5th and 27th July 39 Ferdinands were lost out of an initial total of 89 which means 50 survived the Kursk fighting. A further 8 losses occurred in continued fighting so that by the 30th November 42 were left when the Regt. was sent back to Germany for refitting.

Approximately 48-50 Ferdinands were sent to the Nibelungenwerke at St Valentin for refitting and modification, this total included the survivors from the fighting in Russia, the 2 that had been retained at Kummersdorf for testing plus a few of the destroyed/burnt out vehicles that had been returned from the Eastern front.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 3
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/26/2021 10:01:32 AM   
teddybbeer

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		Sorry for using this thread, but some more minor errors:

20th SS had Hetzers, not StugIII´s.

Only HQ of the 300. zbv division was in Courland pocket, all combat units (4 estonian borderguard regiments and 4 estonian police battalions) didnt retreat out of Estonia in september 1944. If division controlled some other units then those are unknowns, Tessin (lexicon der wehrmacht website) doesnt mention anything. Imo 300. zbv should be removed from that scenario.


but! neighter unit doesnt show up as reinforcements in 1941 scenario or stalingrad one? or those are hidden somewhere?

(in reply to Steelers708)
Post #: 4
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/26/2021 12:26:00 PM   
rjs28023


Posts: 5175
Joined: 9/5/2012
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer

quote:

Only HQ of the 300. zbv division was in Courland pocket, all combat units (4 estonian borderguard regiments and 4 estonian police battalions) didnt retreat out of Estonia in september 1944. If division controlled some other units then those are unknowns, Tessin (lexicon der wehrmacht website) doesnt mention anything. Imo 300. zbv should be removed from that scenario.


Division Staff z.b.V. 300

"...and continued to fight in the Battles of the Courland Pocket until the end of the war. It surrendered on May 8, 1945. Many of its soldiers were later put to death by the Soviets." So says German Order of Battle Volume Two by Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr. The author list his sources.

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Randy

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Post #: 5
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/26/2021 2:59:41 PM   
teddybbeer

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rjs28023


quote:

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer

Only HQ of the 300. zbv division was in Courland pocket, all combat units (4 estonian borderguard regiments and 4 estonian police battalions) didnt retreat out of Estonia in september 1944. If division controlled some other units then those are unknowns, Tessin (lexicon der wehrmacht website) doesnt mention anything. Imo 300. zbv should be removed from that scenario.


Division Staff z.b.V. 300

"...and continued to fight in the Battles of the Courland Pocket until the end of the war. It surrendered on May 8, 1945. Many of its soldiers were later put to death by the Soviets." So says German Order of Battle Volume Two by Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr. The author list his sources.


Have heard bad things about Mitcham OOB books, filled with errors they say. BUT also Nafziger writes in his German order of Battle, infantry in World War II "... On 8 May 1945 the division passed it to Russian captivity in Courland". Nafziger takes most of his data from Tessins Verbande und Truppen books. And theres error in Tessin book, he has mixed 5. borderguard with 3rd. 5th fought under 207. Sicherungs and later under Kampfgruppe Rebane.

3rd and 6th borderguards were shattered on 20.9 at Avinurme and 2th and 4th at Porkuni on 21.9.

Besides on 29. sept 1944 there was order to send all estonian units (20.SS, borderguard regiments, police and home defence units) to Germany to form new estonian units under Waffen-SS, so i have no clue what combat units were under 300. zbv in Courland.

(in reply to rjs28023)
Post #: 6
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/26/2021 3:30:11 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer

Sorry for using this thread, but some more minor errors:

20th SS had Hetzers, not StugIII´s.

Only HQ of the 300. zbv division was in Courland pocket, all combat units (4 estonian borderguard regiments and 4 estonian police battalions) didnt retreat out of Estonia in september 1944. If division controlled some other units then those are unknowns, Tessin (lexicon der wehrmacht website) doesnt mention anything. Imo 300. zbv should be removed from that scenario.


but! neighter unit doesnt show up as reinforcements in 1941 scenario or stalingrad one? or those are hidden somewhere?

20th SS received its 14 Hetzer Aug 44 , Feb 45 10.See Czech fighting Vechicles 1918-45 c Kliment and V Franchev.

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to teddybbeer)
Post #: 7
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/26/2021 6:09:10 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline
quote:


Have heard bad things about Mitcham OOB books, filled with errors they say. BUT also Nafziger writes in his German order of Battle, infantry in World War II "... On 8 May 1945 the division passed it to Russian captivity in Courland". Nafziger takes most of his data from Tessins Verbande und Truppen books. And theres error in Tessin book, he has mixed 5. borderguard with 3rd. 5th fought under 207. Sicherungs and later under Kampfgruppe Rebane.


I don't know whether Mitcham revised the info in the later reprints of his book but I have the original single volume 1985 H/B version and to be honest it's terrible nowadays and I have to admit I was disappointed when I saw that they had used him as a source.

I also have the 3 Nafziger volumes and they're good especially as they cover units not normally covered e.g. the construction battalions and Italian units in German service. The actual OOBs used in them were I believe originally produced as an aid to wargamers, he produced hundreds, if not thousands of these, covering every period from Ancients up to WWII. As an ex-tabletop wargamer I have them all on a series of DVD's as they were, and I believe still are, available to download.

I have 16 volumes of Tessin's Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939–1945 and I would consider it the go to series, yes it has errors but you can find an errata for these errors on Leo Niehorster's website.

I would also highly recommend the book German Ground Forces of World War II: Complete Orders of Battle for Army Groups, Armies, Army Corps, and Other Commands of the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS, September 1, 1939, to May 8, 1945 by William T. Mcroden and Thomas E. Nutter and published by Savas Beattie.

(in reply to teddybbeer)
Post #: 8
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/27/2021 4:03:50 PM   
teddybbeer

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		I have only Nafzigers Infantry and also Tessin's Verbände, but 300. zbv subunits mentioned in those books didnt retreat out of Estonia in september 1944.

I have also Schematische Kriegsgliederung from 5/12/44 until 31/3/45 (i belive i got them germandocsinrussia website? dont remember anymore) and from those 300. zbv is under reorganization in Wehrkreis I until 10/01 and from 1/02 its on XVI corps OOB... now im even more confused than before... ill do some more digging.

(in reply to Steelers708)
Post #: 9
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/27/2021 5:55:21 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline 		I have all the Schematische Kriegsgliederung from 15/1/41 until 30/4/45, the book I mentioned, German Ground Forces of World War II: Complete Orders of Battle for Army Groups, Armies, Army Corps, and Other Commands of the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS, September 1, 1939, to May 8, 1945, is based on the Schematische Kriegsgliederung but it's far easier looking through the book than searching 250 individual pages of a NARA file.

(in reply to teddybbeer)
Post #: 10
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/27/2021 7:29:28 PM   
teddybbeer

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		Yup . But it still doesnt answer the question did 300. zbv controlled any combat units in Courland pocket.

(in reply to Steelers708)
Post #: 11
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/27/2021 7:57:31 PM   
benpark

 

Posts: 3884
Joined: 8/12/2002
Status: offline 		Are Volkssturm units modeled in some way in this scenario?

I don't see any on-map units (given that a turn is a week, this makes sense), but it seems there should be a mechanism for their use (attachments, man-power boost in large towns and cities).

Akin to partisan units possibly, but not behind the lines.

_____________________________

"Fear is a darkroom where the devil develops his negatives" Gary Busey

(in reply to teddybbeer)
Post #: 12
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/27/2021 9:10:50 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline 		ZBV Reg 1 disbanded 24 7 44, Reg 2 through 6 disbanded by 17 9 44, from Tessin, which also indicates some of the below no longer exist or were absorbed into other units.

That leaves some Div assets unaccounted for, so my take is is shell HQ co ordinating minor units at best, Maj Gen Oberon promoted to command 20 4 45 in the 24 4 45 Stellenbesetzung
Art Reg 1018
Cannon Art Abeitlung II/84, 683.
Pioneer Batt 13 L
Felderstatz Bttn 300
Butte Pzr Coy 285
Pzr Coy Narwa
Straf Coy Esten.
Art Alarm Coy.
Einhiet Scheer.




< Message edited by Hanny -- 3/27/2021 10:00:37 PM >

_____________________________

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 13
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/27/2021 10:26:31 PM   
teddybbeer

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		Ye meik no sense at all! No combat units of 300zbv who were stationed in Narva front in september 1944 made out of Estonia because Soviets managed to cut off theyr retreat.
For some strange reason organising retreat from Narva front for 300zbv (and 20th SS) was given to II corps, while both divisions organically (spelling? is there even thatkindofword in english?) belonged to III SS corps, so during retreat units became mixed and Soviet forward units managed to cut them off.

Beute Panzer Kompanie 285., i dont know where it operated exactly, but in year 2000 some borderguards/divers pulled out from swamp one T34/76-40 what belonged to that companie. I could post photos/links but that damned forum and its lousy rules... do you know that even some smileys are forbidden here? bloody nazis....

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 14
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 3/27/2021 11:35:58 PM   
teddybbeer

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Are Volkssturm units modeled in some way in this scenario?

I don't see any on-map units (given that a turn is a week, this makes sense), but it seems there should be a mechanism for their use (attachments, man-power boost in large towns and cities).

Akin to partisan units possibly, but not behind the lines.

I belive no, and why should they? For example in july 41 soviets created around 1700 destruction battalions, of whose about 1350 battalions with quarter of million men ended up in front lines. Theres nothing about those units in game.. heck even Krivosheev doesnt count the losses that IBs suffered.

(in reply to benpark)
Post #: 15
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 10/15/2021 8:47:32 PM   
teddybbeer

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 5/18/2018
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		Found it! Tessin was wrong!

Attachment (1)

(in reply to teddybbeer)
Post #: 16
RE: Errors in Vistula to Berlin - 10/16/2021 7:31:25 AM   
Kursk1943

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline 		Shift this thread to the Forum Tech Support, sub-forum Scenario data / Map issues, where it belongs to.

(in reply to teddybbeer)
Post #: 17
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