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RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/29/2021 10:26:07 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I have fixed the French fleet raspberry run-bys.
I have a solution for the throw away fleet.
I have a solution for France 1940.

Basically I see France as falling between June and August depending on a variety of factors.

Good player with the "Big BEF" defense vs good player August but at a sacrifice of BoA.

But September or worse is not good for the game.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 121
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/29/2021 10:37:45 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		Sensible objectives, but I shall miss the raspberry. Every true Englishman should fight to the last french sailor

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web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 122
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 8:00:34 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I have fixed the French fleet raspberry run-bys.
I have a solution for the throw away fleet.
I have a solution for France 1940.


Please also check this Naval Bombardment usage:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4991825

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 123
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 12:13:13 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Could you please also check the following?

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4991900
and
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4991914

Thanks

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 124
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 1:57:30 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1530
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		Here are the results from my hot seat test. My strategy for the Germans was to use the armor to kill the front Allied line then pull it back when it got down to its last two movement points and replace it with infantry which could then soften the line for the next armor drive. Then repeat. This required the German's to produce a lot of trucks to keep the armor useable.

With the German forces I was able to produce I was able to take all the border countries in one turn.

For the Allies I found they just didn't have the quality of units to waste on counter attacks when only infantry was available as targets. Their air power did very well though and was probably the main cause of future production point loss when the Germans rebuild it.

German: Land: 207 Air: 91 Navy: 17
UK: Land: 154 Air: 47 Navy: 0

The Germans suffered no Shattered units.
The UK suffered the loss of 1 Armor, 1 Mech, and 1 Small Inf Corps.

The break through to Paris was sufficiently rapid when it did occur (7/19 turn) that the British couldn't shift any of their units to the Mediterranean area. They had to go by way of Gibraltar with Navy escort.

The UK problem isn't England since their Fleet can protect it and the Units in France can easily reach it's ports in time. Their problem is Egypt. I didn't really seriously test this but I built 2 It marine units and 4 Landing ships. But there one Armor and Mech units with some infantry easily broke through the UK line. The UK problem being if all there full strength (large) Infantry Corps and Armor are in France then there is nothing in the Egyptian desert to stop the Italians. I was also able to take Syria with the Italians although the Italian fleet took a serious beating. I am relatively sure that if the Germans had also prepared to support the Italians and the Italians had built more invasion forces they could take Egypt before the UK could shift enough Troops there.

What I don't know is if the Germans have enough force and building potential to take on Russia in 41.

I also don't know what the UK losing the Middle East would do to the UK economy. I suspect it would cause considerable problems but I don't know how much it effects there production.

Oddly, the Germans did poorly in my game in the BoA. They sank 26 UK merchants and 1 Escort but at the cost of 17 factors in Subs. I don't know whether that was just bad luck or if v10 of the game has made some changes to the BoA balance.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 125
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 2:25:10 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I tested the situation last night and came up with very similar results to you. I did exactly, and have always done, what you posted above.

As for the BoA exchange....
You sank 260 PP of MM + 40 PP if ES = 300 PP of convoys stuff
You lost 102 PP of submarines.

132PP 1940 sub / 5 strength = 26 PP per strength
26 X .25 repair cost = 102

remember it rounds down.
So even though you did crappy you did well.

There are some issues that I did fix. Like now air units won't intercept navies UNLESS they are in naval mission mode, just like supply attacks.
If a fleet is in port it won't be able to do off shore support.

Originally I set the UK up as completely historical. But it was too easy to invade them and conquer Egypt. So I beefed them up a some.

As for the aircraft ratio loss yea it's off. I might make some adjustments somewhere.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 126
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 2:58:10 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

German: Land: 207 Air: 91 Navy: 17
UK: Land: 154 Air: 47 Navy: 0

The Germans suffered no Shattered units.
The UK suffered the loss of 1 Armor, 1 Mech, and 1 Small Inf Corps.


If I suffered only these losses I would not complain, these losses are the correct ones to continue a balanced game.
I may be doing something wrong, in the AARs in progress we will see it.

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 127
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 3:43:18 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		What I am doing

Fixing the French Fleet support from port issue. They shouldnt be able to

Air units now will only intercept naval when set to naval mission, but still support land. It will be just like supply interdiction.

I reduced the starting UK forces back to historical now that the game has been flushed out. I had to add to their forces to prevent an easy German invasion. But since we improved invasion rules and added naval rules I can put them back to historical. They will lose about 100 starting strength but all of these are repairs not raw builds. So this should put even more pressure on the decision to go all out in France or not. I don't want players quitting in August 1940 because it is too hard. Not fair to anyone. Like every game I make your decisions are a balance of give and take with a zero sum outcome if your opponent plays optimally. In this case how fast do you want France to fall? The range should be June to August.

Disposable French Fleet - I am considering how to implement a morale adjustment for lost ships for countries you can negotiate a surrender with. This basically would translate into a smaller Vichy, earlier surrender, or possible capture of naval groups for the Axis. Still deciding.


_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 128
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 4:00:14 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		I'm not sure that screwing over the UK starting land forces is going to keep the balance for those of us who don't use the all-in tactic.

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 129
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 4:17:44 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		I would be happy to play someone that tries the rolling armor. I have tried that there is just does not seem to be enough hexes to do that in the front.
Maybe I am not playing well.


I guess we would need to test it. Maybe we just do not need a fix for it...Just play better.
I don't really use most of the UK starting units. I might use 1...but mostly just builds.

In the one I am playtesting I have...

UK 2 Armor / 2 Mech / 5 Inf
France 1 Armor and not sure...a lot of Inf.


Any screen shots? I want to see what you had set up...
How many trucks did you use? Honestly I stopped using them completely. Cost appears to be above the gain, at least for me but then maybe I am wrong as I went through 100 points in 3 turns. The return is just 2 more attacks per unit. Maybe that is good and what need to occur.

Not sure how you did not get the UK units to Africa though. As soon as a unit is worn...hit the rail lines to the south and transport out to Africa.

I will have to retest.


(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 130
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 4:36:02 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline 		Don't go crazy, I use supply trucks and I get results similar to yours, they are not the solution.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 131
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 4:47:10 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		I would appreciate your thoughts on the attached...

So this is my defense in France.







Attachment (1)

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 132
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 4:50:23 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Now the attack was pretty aggressive...maybe this is not what you would have done but would like to know what you might change in how it looks

Here is France after the first round.

I am the defender here...the question is...

What would you do?





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by stjeand -- 3/30/2021 4:52:36 PM >

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 133
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 4:59:58 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline 		It seems to me a very big problem to go through it!



< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 3/30/2021 5:07:42 PM >

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 134
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 5:04:06 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Here is my idea:
1. Switch the 3-2 French army by your UK armored corps
2. Put everything on air to soften the 10-5 German infantry corps and do your best attack
3. If the German infantry corps retreats in the designated hex
4. You have a nice pocket to clear.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 135
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 5:06:52 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		But perhaps put everything in your AARs.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 136
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 5:08:14 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

What I am doing

Fixing the French Fleet support from port issue. They shouldnt be able to

Air units now will only intercept naval when set to naval mission, but still support land. It will be just like supply interdiction.

I reduced the starting UK forces back to historical now that the game has been flushed out. I had to add to their forces to prevent an easy German invasion. But since we improved invasion rules and added naval rules I can put them back to historical. They will lose about 100 starting strength but all of these are repairs not raw builds. So this should put even more pressure on the decision to go all out in France or not. I don't want players quitting in August 1940 because it is too hard. Not fair to anyone. Like every game I make your decisions are a balance of give and take with a zero sum outcome if your opponent plays optimally. In this case how fast do you want France to fall? The range should be June to August.

Disposable French Fleet - I am considering how to implement a morale adjustment for lost ships for countries you can negotiate a surrender with. This basically would translate into a smaller Vichy, earlier surrender, or possible capture of naval groups for the Axis. Still deciding.



Thanks Alvaro. Would you please also consider this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ancient One

France begins with several corps that have 50% experience (mostly on the Maginot Line). I suggest this be reduced to 40% like the others.


This would avoid the micro management the French player is always doing game after game.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 137
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 5:13:26 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Here is my idea:
1. Switch the 3-2 French army by your UK armored corps
2. Put everything on air to soften the 10-5 German infantry corps and do your best attack
3. If the German infantry corps retreats in the designated hex
4. You have a nice pocket to clear.




quote:

the



OH I did...shattered the 2 Inf corps
Pocketed them...had 2 fresh units on the line with Germany.

BUT FORGOT TO TAKE PICS...

So talked with Comadreja and decided to do the turn again...just waiting to see what other think and the thoughts they have for the Germans.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 138
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 5:15:11 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		This is what the turn looked like after the French counter attack.
Perhaps the Germans overstretched...they did cripple 2 French 50% experience units. They will be back in a few turns I hope. And the French armor is worn but...






Attachment (1)

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 139
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 6:01:33 PM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline 		I repeat - historically the UK could never have fielded that kind of army - I believe what is shown exceeds the UK army at home, in France and in Africa in 1940.

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Post #: 140
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 6:15:46 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I repeat - historically the UK could never have fielded that kind of army - I believe what is shown exceeds the UK army at home, in France and in Africa in 1940.


I agree...but then so does the German Army and quite possibly the French army.
Though they had a huge army it was just trained like it would be WW I again.

I know that the goal of this game was not to be historical...

Just need to find the balance is all.

< Message edited by stjeand -- 3/30/2021 6:17:00 PM >

(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 141
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 7:16:16 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

I repeat - historically the UK could never have fielded that kind of army - I believe what is shown exceeds the UK army at home, in France and in Africa in 1940.


I agree...but then so does the German Army and quite possibly the French army.
Though they had a huge army it was just trained like it would be WW I again.

I know that the goal of this game was not to be historical...

Just need to find the balance is all.


From what I have read BEF sent 390,000 men and UK produced more than 1500 tanks / armored vehicles before 1940, I think with different guidelines I think they could have sent this big deployment. I imagine that in those times it was something unthinkable to do, but not impossible (maybe I'm wrong and it was completely impossible). However, it is realistic to unprotect your country to defend another, although the navy does protect it, would that be enough?

So it was possible, but is it not 100% realistic? I think it is the game that should limit this situation, it is not the players who have to decide what is right and what is not, because of things like that there is anger between players.

Either way it is a problem, we want a more playable and more fun game, the French All-in defense can be beaten but it will give victory to the Allies 95% of the games, and this is not fun.

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 142
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 7:57:41 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

I'm not sure that screwing over the UK starting land forces is going to keep the balance for those of us who don't use the all-in tactic.


Don't worry, 100 strength to repair is nothing in terms of PP.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 143
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 8:54:07 PM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline 		BEF size was around 4 Corps equivalent. I see 9 Corps above.

But agree perhaps it would have been possible by stripping the home land, however, that probably is not realistic. Therein might lie part of the problem.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 3/30/2021 8:58:14 PM >

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Post #: 144
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 9:08:10 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		I don't think units should be stripped...but more need to be homeguard. That would solve the issue for the most part.

But need to validate to be sure.


And yes I have 9 corps...and there are 3 or 4 more not in France. Forget the exact number.


(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 145
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 9:42:35 PM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

I'm not sure that screwing over the UK starting land forces is going to keep the balance for those of us who don't use the all-in tactic.


Don't worry, 100 strength to repair is nothing in terms of PP.

Just over 3 weeks' worth of PPs

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 146
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/30/2021 10:46:46 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/31/2020
From: Sitges-SPAIN
Status: offline
quote:

BEF size was around 4 Corps equivalent. I see 9 Corps above.

But agree perhaps it would have been possible by stripping the home land, however, that probably is not realistic. Therein might lie part of the problem.


Just that! What I was trying to say is that if from 1939 when the game begins, if the leaders had acted differently, many new scenarios would be possible a year later, I think that sometimes we are very strict with the game.

I love that the game is as historical as possible at the beginning, and as realistic as possible in the development of the game, and I know that you help to achieve it, but if there is no place to change anything, it would not be worth playing.

But I also want the game to be balanced and fun, and I think this is the real problem here.

(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 147
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/31/2021 12:01:57 AM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Thoughts...a few come to mind.

1) Lower French experience for Maginot Line troops OR make is so they have to stay there somehow. The French gov't insisted that they would be attacked there...and never left.
2) French never had any sort of tank corps. They had very good tanks at the time...but their tactic were abysmal. They spread the tanks out throughout the infantry divisions. So you could remove that unit, just like they do not have mech.
3) Somehow England must garrison their country with a good amount of troops and air. Perhaps all the southern cities require large corps or something like that. They clearly were worried early on about an invasion...NOW after Germany attack Russia that could be lifted a bit to say, small corps.


I do not really like to limit the UK...as they are to be around for the game, unlike the French. I would rather focus our efforts on them.

Then again Sillyflower does send the entire army and airforce to Africa...which is a HUGE pain.

(in reply to ComadrejaKorp)
Post #: 148
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/31/2021 8:22:17 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline 		I always leave UK well defended after my traumatic struggle in my 2nd game vs sveint in which he did a successful Sealion

Fall Weiss works well with a 'reasonable' BEF so I am against weakening the french in every game because the problem is only caused by an all-in BEF.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 3/31/2021 8:27:37 AM >

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to stjeand)
Post #: 149
RE: How to ruin the game? - 3/31/2021 4:36:36 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Sorry Silly but you have raised a very valid point with the all-in strategy but you are against weakening the UK, you are against weakening the Canadian, you are against weakening the French.
So, what shall we do? Boosting the Germans?

I am quite sure the in-game mechanisms won't allow to do a limitation of 4-5 UK corps in France in 1940. But, this is what I like in the game, you can do a strategy not based on events.




_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 150
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