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How to simulate the surviving of land units from air strike

 
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How to simulate the surviving of land units from air st... - 4/1/2021 2:22:40 AM   
arrianos

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 3/21/2018
Status: offline 		The typical real scenario is the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia,and the PLA's airstrike operation on Taiwan which is estimated to happend within 6 years.I think there should be a underground bunker function as the same with airbase and naval base,land units can be launched from such a base,and they can RTB and replenish.

Currently I can only place these land units in the valley,with the cover of the altitude of mountains,I will try to reduce the alt of cloud to increase to the rate of air detection,any other suggestions?
Post #: 1
RE: How to simulate the surviving of land units from ai... - 4/1/2021 2:13:56 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		This is difficult. Land entities tend to be very easily found and then killed - but it's not a land sim so you need to fudge it.

Here are some tricks I use, none are perfect

-equipping communications bunkers with weapons and sensors - sort of works but not great
-using existing fortress units (Norwegian, Swedish and a few others) as fixed gun emplacements - works but looks weird
-there is a facility for a fixed tank turret (T-55 I think)
-Lua in units when the player triggers them somehow (players get pissed off at this if used too often)
-when a unit gets killed, use it as a trigger to spawn a reduced unit close by, tricky and a pita
-have lua continually create more units - like a continuous fountain of death, not a very good solution but it works for irregular fighters or something
-randomly pop in SAMs and MANPADs to keep the player on their toes
-you can simulate convoys by putting truck units on a support mission over a short distance, great for drawing the player into a trap

Anyway, these are some ides, but the key is to remember the game does not accurately simulate land combat. It simulates Air to ground well but only for fixed base like structures - mobile land units are too easily killed. So I don't feel guilty using a lot of them, and not giving points for players expending munitions against them

Hope that helps

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(in reply to arrianos)
Post #: 2
RE: How to simulate the surviving of land units from ai... - 4/1/2021 7:31:09 PM   
DESRON420

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 9/30/2015
Status: offline 		A Lua idea I had left over from last time I played CMANO is setting up RP areas defined as the front line and the forward and enemy rear, and then spawning and despawning representative ground and AD units in each area at rates that decrease every time a target of the appropriate type is destroyed in the RP area.

This would model the difference between SEAD, CAS, and interdiction but avoid methodical hunting of individual units, which are treated statistically. Successful missions cannot totally eliminate ground forces from an area. Rather, they reduce the spawn rate in the area and lead to a weakening of enemy ground or AD strength over time. Reinforcements or withdrawals can be modeled by setting the spawn rate differently from the despawn rate so that the zone gradually changes in population density over time, or by setting multiple rates for different unit spawns that begin at different times.

For instance, a zone might contain a small light infantry unit being reinforced by a large armored unit. It would start by spawning MANPADS at a given rate but would begin to spawn heavier AD at an ever-growing rate determined by the enemy ground forces rating in the enemy rear area. The player must choose whether to deal with the heavier AD as it arrives on the front line or try to interdict it as it moves into the battle area and confront the deeper enemy air defense network.

A dynamic ground fight could even be defined by comparing the current friendly and enemy ground spawn rates in the RP areas. If one was too high relative to the other, the ground battle in that area would be declared over. In a small scenario this could be a victory condition but in a larger one it might shift the front line to a new RP area.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 3
RE: How to simulate the surviving of land units from ai... - 4/1/2021 8:59:52 PM   
dcpollay


Posts: 532
Joined: 11/22/2012
From: Upstate New York USA
Status: offline 		Another option might be to assign units a percentage chance to respawn after a period of time. This would allow repeated strikes to gradually attrite forces in the area rather than IDing and destroying them all at once.

For example, if you have 4 SAM units in an area and they are all destroyed, perhaps only 2 of them will be replaced by "reinforcements."

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Post #: 4
RE: How to simulate the surviving of land units from ai... - 4/2/2021 1:36:21 AM   
arrianos

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 3/21/2018
Status: offline 		Thank you guys for reply!
I tried to set clouds alt at 7k-10km,then the Wing Loong can only detect land units under 7k,and can be attacked easily by MANPADS,but the clouds doesn't affect J-16 AESA,it can easily detect land units of Taiwan even from the strait.
I will try more rounds if J-16 AESA can regonize the type of land units,and the side of land units is not easy to regonize from aircrafts.

An "endless" respawn LUA solution will work as I see from your suggestion,any scenario with such LUA available which maybe I can modify from?

I've downloaded a mobile SAM demo before,but it's too complicate for me to modify.I tried Teleport to Area action in the past for amphibious assault,which works fine,but it can't be teleport from LHD as cargo,maybe I can try it for land "reinforcements",I will do it both way,also with LUA if I could make it.

< Message edited by arrianos -- 4/2/2021 1:49:55 AM >

(in reply to arrianos)
Post #: 5
RE: How to simulate the surviving of land units from ai... - 4/2/2021 1:53:54 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Yeah I have one in Indian Ocean Fury # Gate of Tears, and one in Northern Fury #29 Something's Fishy

This is from Gate of Tears. It has been a long time and I had help building it so am not 100% sure how it works but once you activate the event I've got it on a 5 min cycle so it fires and places another unit within a certain distance of a Ref Point. It then checks to see if it placed the unit on land and if not runs again (up to 50 times I think). 5 min later (or whatever 'Regular Time' step you choose.) it happens again. You will also want to turn the event off based on some sort of player action

------Random unit
local unit = ScenEdit_UnitX()
local unit = ScenEdit_GetReferencePoint({side='WP',name='spawn'});print(unit)
local PlatoonNumber = ScenEdit_GetKeyValue("AssaultForce");print("Assault Pl #: ");print(PlatoonNumber);
local lastN = tonumber(PlatoonNumber);
if lastN == nil then
lastN = 0;
end
lastN = lastN +1;
local world = -999999
--rp = ScenEdit_GetReferencePoint({side='WP',name='spawn'});print(rp)
local new ={}
local retries = 50
while world <0 and retries > 0
do
v = math.random () / 10; y = math.random() /10;print(v);print(y)
new.lat= tonumber(unit.latitude)+v-y;new.lon=tonumber(unit.longitude)-v+y
world = World_GetElevation({latitude=new.lat, longitude=new.lon});print(world)
retries = retries - 1
end
if world >0 then
local Pl =ScenEdit_AddUnit({type = 'Facility', name = 'Militia #' .. lastN,
heading = 045, dbid = 626, side = 'WP', Lat=new.lat, Lon=new.lon});print(Pl)
ScenEdit_SetKeyValue("AssaultForce", tostring(lastN)); -- last id added successfully
local ok = ScenEdit_AssignUnitToMission (Pl.guid, "Militia Atk")
if ok == false then
print('Unable to add to mission');
end
end



_____________________________

Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
And our blog: http://northernfury.us/blog/post2/
Twitter: @NorthernFury94 or Facebook https://www.facebook.com/northernfury/

(in reply to arrianos)
Post #: 6
RE: How to simulate the surviving of land units from ai... - 4/4/2021 1:34:39 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		There are hardened aircraft shelters in the database.

Cover and concealment for ground based units in CMO is sort of a complicated thing in my mind. In land-war oriented games, it's typically a function of terrain and the unit type, as well as whether or not the unit is in "defilade." In TacOps 3, there are also "entrenchment" units, where you can put your units in to protect and conceal them. Furthermore, in real life, aircraft often have difficulty distinguishing between live and dead armored vehicles. In CMO they just remove them from the game as they're destroyed. You're not talking about that kind of tactical concealment, though.

Here's what I'd do:

I'd use a Hardened Underground Bunker unit (#2926) or A/C Underground Aircraft Shelter Entrance (Blast Doors) (#915) to represent your bunker.

If stuff is periodically leaving that bunker for some reason, I'd use LUA to create and remove the units as they came and went. The thing is, from an air perspective, I'm not sure it's really necessary to model the ground forces. Think of it from the air perspective: If I was planning an air strike, the target would be the bunker or the doors. While the desired weapon effect would be to destroy or degrade what's inside for at least a fixed period of time, if not permanently, that's not really captured in CMO in detail. It doesn't ask questions like, "Did the weapon detonate against the bursting slab, above the ceiling, or in the void?" "Which void did it explode in?" "How many voids are there?" "What was in each void?" "Do I need the bomb to go off inside the void or is it good enough to collapse the ceiling on it?" That kind of weaponeering isn't what CMO does well, and I'm not sure it'd really add anything valuable to the game. That'd be the kind of thing people focused on destroying what's inside would be asking, though. That'd be an example of something too tactical for the game, and I'm not sure the guys are really well equipped to even begin to model that kind of question in a way that even resembles realism. Destroying hardened, deeply buried targets is a little bit of a black art, best assumed away in the scope of CMO. That kind of thing would be figured out by the mission planning cell, if not some higher level planning or analysis cell before the mission was even flown.

This sort of touches on the fundamental question: What's the point of this scenario? If the problem you're presented with is to attack or defend a deeply buried, hardened target, then you don't need all the stuff that might be in the bunker. That's in the weeds. It doesn't mean it's not there, it's just assumed away. If the point is to fight a land battle, on the other hand, CMO is probably the wrong tool for that kind of wargame.

In wargaming there's a persistent fantasy of a wargame that does everything in minute detail, and answers all questions in one system. Pursuing that fantasy is the surest path to producing nothing valuable or interesting at all.






< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 4/4/2021 1:42:50 PM >

(in reply to arrianos)
Post #: 7
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