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NO wargame is perfect, not one - 4/4/2021 4:32:12 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline

Choose any massively popular wargame, and I can tear it apart somewhere, somehow.

Steel Panthers World at War via the Steel Panthers III Brigade Combat software, likely responsible for this forum even existing, and as well-loved, as is SL/ASL, but ever played the Long Campaign?

The AI in the long campaign is as brain-dead as it gets. And design gaffes, ever hear of kubel blitz?

The software was made for Windows when it was called Windows 95. There is a long history of people complaining about newer hardware and newer OSs not liking the game.

But here it is 2021, and the General's edition is STILL a good purchase at full price. And you STILL need the pros to get it to run.

The game when played human vs human still suffers like ASL does when it is a DYO game. Two humans, both cleverly picking forces with no connection to history, and chances are the game is a dud the second players put their counters in play.
Because humans are used to exploiting perfectly legal decisions within the game, that totally kills play balance.

So there, I have destroyed to famous squad tactical wargames considered to be the yardstick by which all others are measured.

They claim they are doing Steel Tigers next after WitE2 is established.
WitE might be a broken game if you're smart.
WitE2 might just be a waste of 100 bucks to some.
Steel Tigers might be a great big immense disappointment too.

Life doesn't come with guarantees with wargames.

Sooooooo here it is time to talk about Tigers on the Hunt.
What precisely is wrong with the game?
Peter might want to improve his creation, but life doesn't always give a hoot about what we want.

I've got the game, the two expansions.
And I have the ASL mod (awesome). And I think most of the scenarios we have around here (massive thanks for the bundling).
I think I got a massive return on my investment.

I like using The Guards Counter Attack as my test for "Is it like Squad Leader (SL, not ASL).
I've played The Guards Counter Attack all those years ago.
Steel Panthers has a version of it. Nice looking, but it uses its own software. It isn't really the same.
I've played the ASL upgrade in ASL's conversion. Well, there weren't multi-story buildings in the beginning. It matters.

Tigers on the Hunt actually recreates the real thing amazingly well.
Tigers on the Hunt doesn't have multi-story buildings. Basic SL didn't either on that scenario.
And you know what, it's not always a game killer if it is missing.

Now Valor and Victory might be a great design when it appears. And we might gripe about it too.
Second Front is looking like it will be BETTER than ASL at its own game.
But to be honest, I'd rather be looking at ASL counters than fully incredible 3d graphics. Drifting smoke effects are neat. But it isn't needed.
Animations are fun, but not required. I can make little firing sounds myself :)

I have me a whoooole lot of scenarios to play.
But I have a question.
I have not been lingering here in this forum for 5 years.

"What precisely is 'wrong' about Tigers on the Hunt, that we desperately need Peter to fix it?"

That question is for anyone bold enough to answer the question.

I'm currently playing Heroes of Stalingrad, because of stunning mods.
I am also playing LnL Tactical Digital because it is the future of the design.
I am not aware that there is anything critically wrong with Heroes of Stalingrad.

I've taken a pass on buying Command Ops 2's revised releases, even though they might be better than the original Highway, CotA and Battles of the Bulge releases. But I'm going to get the two more recent CO 2 packages.

I say the above because some games might get better with time, but, they don't always need to be replaced.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

Post #: 1

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 4/4/2021 5:03:26 PM

rico21

Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline

Steel Panthers has a very bad graphic, LNL doesn't have a Rate of Fire.

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 2

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 6/19/2021 2:22:50 PM

fuselex

Posts: 788
Joined: 8/2/2014
Status: offline

steel panthers , i have never played so cant comment.
second front looks horrible for old wargammers .
lnl doesnt have RoF ,
hey rico .
you know i bow to you for your incredible scenario`s and knowledge - by the way for those just joining ToTH - this is a paid advertisement for a god also know as Rico :)
but the issues such as RoF , LRF , do not need to be an issue .
it actually complicates the game , easily compensated by giving a HMG extra effective range for example .
ASL will never be properly ported to pc , cause the rules are insane and specifically aimed at 2 people sitting across from each other with an incredible understanding of the game .
so we look for the best , and since my last rant , i would suggest LnL . ( my view only)
scenario editor , random generator , ability to import and play scenarios that after playing ToTH , i know there are some incredible ppl making these .
i thank all those who have thrown many years into building ToTH in to what it is . but maybe its time to look elswhere

(in reply to rico21)

Post #: 3

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 6/19/2021 2:39:35 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

TOTH is not for everyone, like I said in the past...I'm not good enough developer/designer to make a game for everyone. Some people will like it and some people won't, I'm ok with that. All I wanted to do is share my creation with the wargaming community - it's all. It took me 15 years of ward work to make it happen, the greatest thing about the game for me is the fact that I met Jorgen, I now have a great friend in Sweden. And of course the game community has been great as well.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 6/19/2021 2:49:14 PM >

(in reply to fuselex)

Post #: 4

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 6/19/2021 2:51:45 PM

fuselex

Posts: 788
Joined: 8/2/2014
Status: offline

Peter , dont be offended by my post , this game has given me many , many hours of enjoyment ,
ppl i had never heard of became names i looked through the posts for .
you made a game that instantly was compared to sl/asl and the demands then followed for that.
once it was out you then had to follow that path .
your effort is never in question ,

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 5

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 6/19/2021 3:14:24 PM

fuselex

Posts: 788
Joined: 8/2/2014
Status: offline

and just to get back on track .
Mrswargammer -
you are full of doggy poop .
through out all of your posts i can not find one that even points me in the direction that you have even played the game .
generic statements , no examples apart from a well know scenario and even then you just name it , no feel for this game .
just nothing ,
pretty sure doggy poop avoids your shoes , at least it has had some experience

(in reply to fuselex)

Post #: 6

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 8/19/2021 10:53:29 AM

Agathosdaimon

Posts: 1034
Joined: 7/8/2012
Status: offline

I am just getting back in TOTH now and i think it is marvellous. I am not the most professional of turn based WW2 wargame players, but this one certainly feels unique to me and i love the element of have to start engines and button up. I don t hae the expansions, but the base game itself comes with satisfying amount of scenarios, so thank you for creating it! :)

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 7

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 8/19/2021 11:09:23 AM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

I can't please everyone, I had to make some compromises along the way; at least few will like it.

(in reply to Agathosdaimon)

Post #: 8

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 8/19/2021 7:21:47 PM

LN59

Posts: 204
Joined: 1/28/2016
From: France
Status: offline

Far from me the desire to make a

classification!

Because I humbly admit to having remained faithful to certain "Old Glories"

which still run very well on my PC and which always make me have a real good time

(hotseat, multiplayer, PBEM or mainly solo).

So from Battle Academy and SPWaW-GE (Matrix Games); John Tiller's Campaign Series (originally Talonsoft then Matrix Games); John Tiller's Squad Battles [John Tiller (1953-2021): R.I.P. John] and some of the Panzer Campaigns (HPS then JTS, with big thanks to the Wargame Design Studio) and, finally, CMBO, CMBB & CMAK (via GOG.com, originally Battlefront.com), despite all the flaws and other limitations we can blame them for.

I also like to play with the updated versions of some of these games, such as WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT (Shrapnel Games); CS Middle East and soon, I hope, CS Indochina-Vietnam that we owe to the incredible team (the Campaign Series Legion) coordinated by Jason Petho for Matrix Games [Hi, Big Ivan!].

What I like about these essentially tactical/grand tactical games is the variety of their approaches to simulation; that of the scale used and graphics chosen; the abundance of scenarios, historical or fictional; the greater or lesser flexibility of scenario and campaign editors, etc., etc.

I like being able to compare the ways of winning

(or not being totally defeated

) with one or the other game.
Whether it is to reconstruct historical or fictional confrontations, but similar.

It helps me to:

1 � better understand the rules to be respected in land combat (simulated, of course);
2 � the good habits to adopt in order to develop a scenario which can be amusing for the player and enriching for the history enthusiast;
3 � the necessary data and the logic located at the heart of the programs being our hobby's basis.

Considering my level, I'm sure I still have a lot to discover and for a long time ...
Guaranteed never to get bored!

Also, guess which game has it all combined together the best since its release in 2016?
A game to which I return regularly, having not yet exhausted its reserve of scenarios,
nor stopped revising the handful of those that I have been able to commit.

"Tigers on the Hunt", of course!

Thanks to

Peter Fisla and J�rgen Holmquist

in the first place.
Thanks to "King Rico"

and all his Peers

in Inventiveness (aids, mods, scenarios & campaigns, etc.)

Lilian

< Message edited by LN59 -- 8/19/2021 7:39:42 PM >

_____________________________

"On ne passe pas !"
The French soldiers' motto (Verdun, 1916)

"One does not pass! The Covid-19 even less."
Years 2020, 2021 motto, 2022 distant memory

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 9

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 8/20/2021 1:13:54 AM

Big Ivan

Posts: 1963
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: Mansfield, Ohio USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LN59

Far from me the desire to make a classification!

Because I humbly admit to having remained faithful to certain "Old Glories" which still run very well on my PC and which always make me have a real good time (hotseat, multiplayer, PBEM or mainly solo).

So from Battle Academy and SPWaW-GE (Matrix Games); John Tiller's Campaign Series (originally Talonsoft then Matrix Games); John Tiller's Squad Battles [John Tiller (1953-2021): R.I.P. John] and some of the Panzer Campaigns (HPS then JTS, with big thanks to the Wargame Design Studio) and, finally, CMBO, CMBB & CMAK (via GOG.com, originally Battlefront.com), despite all the flaws and other limitations we can blame them for.

I also like to play with the updated versions of some of these games, such as WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT (Shrapnel Games); CS Middle East and soon, I hope, CS Indochina-Vietnam that we owe to the incredible team (the Campaign Series Legion) coordinated by Jason Petho for Matrix Games [Hi, Big Ivan!].

What I like about these essentially tactical/grand tactical games is the variety of their approaches to simulation; that of the scale used and graphics chosen; the abundance of scenarios, historical or fictional; the greater or lesser flexibility of scenario and campaign editors, etc., etc.

I like being able to compare the ways of winning (or not being totally defeated ) with one or the other game.
Whether it is to reconstruct historical or fictional confrontations, but similar.

It helps me to:

1 � better understand the rules to be respected in land combat (simulated, of course);
2 � the good habits to adopt in order to develop a scenario which can be amusing for the player and enriching for the history enthusiast;
3 � the necessary data and the logic located at the heart of the programs being our hobby's basis.

Considering my level, I'm sure I still have a lot to discover and for a long time ...
Guaranteed never to get bored!

Also, guess which game has it all combined together the best since its release in 2016?
A game to which I return regularly, having not yet exhausted its reserve of scenarios,
nor stopped revising the handful of those that I have been able to commit.

"Tigers on the Hunt", of course!

Thanks to Peter Fisla and J�rgen Holmquist in the first place.
Thanks to "King Rico" and all his Peers in Inventiveness (aids, mods, scenarios & campaigns, etc.)

Lilian

++1 Lilian!!

_____________________________

Blitz call sign Big Ivan.

(in reply to LN59)

Post #: 10

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 8/31/2021 4:25:21 AM

chee006

Posts: 28
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

I have to admit I never really played Tigers on the Hunt, I did not spend much time with it but the community seems really divided about it.

_____________________________

(in reply to Big Ivan)

Post #: 11

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 11/25/2021 8:23:27 PM

Firebri

Posts: 291
Joined: 3/9/2011
From: Bristol
Status: offline

You are missing a good game, chee006. It also comes with an easy to read manual.

As MrsWargamer states in her post that, no game is perfect. To me TOTH is a solid game.

(in reply to chee006)

Post #: 12

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 11/25/2021 8:34:11 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline

Thank you for your sincere words Firebri, I appreciate it :)

(in reply to Firebri)

Post #: 13

RE: NO wargame is perfect, not one - 11/25/2021 8:45:29 PM

Firebri

Posts: 291
Joined: 3/9/2011
From: Bristol
Status: offline

Many thanks for your comment too, Peter.

Some of the games I have on my machine:

John Tillers Eagles Strike. Panzer Command Ostfront. John Tillers Campaign Series. Desert War 1940-42.

They are good in various ways, but if I have to pick one. That I keep coming back to, it's TOTH.

Keep up the good work.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 14