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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Arty casualties

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Arty casualties - 4/6/2021 6:06:16 AM

George Patton

Posts: 1238
Joined: 7/12/2005
From: Lugano, Switzerland
Status: offline

Ok the malaria, ok my troops are out of the city, and all the other things, but to me it seems a little bit to much. What do you think?

Ground combat at Port Moresby (98,130)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 11897 troops, 145 guns, 154 vehicles, Assault Value = 468

Defending force 59155 troops, 601 guns, 110 vehicles, Assault Value = 1638

Japanese ground losses:
850 casualties reported
Squads: 24 destroyed, 46 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 8 (6 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Post #: 1

RE: Arty casualties - 4/6/2021 6:18:39 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

If your troops were in bad shape and have not built field forts, and the Allies have superiority in number, caliber and range of guns, and they have good forts, then a good die roll in their favour is enough to explain the result. Oh, and detection level is important. If they were bombing your troops and reconned the hex as well, that would boost their results.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 4/6/2021 2:14:41 PM >

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to George Patton)

Post #: 2

RE: Arty casualties - 4/6/2021 7:19:10 AM

George Patton

Posts: 1238
Joined: 7/12/2005
From: Lugano, Switzerland
Status: offline

Ok they are not all in good shape, but no enemy planes is flying there. No aerial bombing by enemy planes.
They have a couple of 155mm coastal guns. The others are no such incredibile guns. All australians.
And about the coastal guns: if they fire against ships unloading, then they fire again against my troops? That�s not fair 😃

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 3

RE: Arty casualties - 4/6/2021 9:47:36 AM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline

Your troops just arrived and had no time to build basic trenches yet? Then it is normal

(in reply to George Patton)

Post #: 4

RE: Arty casualties - 4/6/2021 10:49:36 AM

jdsrae

Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline

They are all Aussies

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 4/6/2021 10:50:44 AM >

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(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 5

RE: Arty casualties - 4/6/2021 12:45:47 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

How about this one with the quality of the defenders:

March 08, 1942

Ground combat at Clark Field (79,76)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 51084 troops, 690 guns, 375 vehicles, Assault Value = 1263

Defending force 33429 troops, 551 guns, 248 vehicles, Assault Value = 1154

Japanese ground losses:
1496 casualties reported
Squads: 82 destroyed, 22 disabled
Non Combat: 17 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 11 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 21 (11 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 13 (11 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
54 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
19th Division
21st Ind. Engineer Regiment
65th Brigade
48th Division
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
10th Division
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
12th Division
7th Tank Regiment
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd RF Gun Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Mortar Regiment
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th RF Gun Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Mortar Battalion
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
20th Army
14th Army
3rd Engineer Construction Battalion

Defending units:
26th PS Cavalry Regiment
31st Infantry Regiment
4th Marine Regiment
14th PS Engineer Regiment
57th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
21st PA Infantry Division
31st PA Infantry Division
Subic Bay Defenses
102nd PA Infantry Regiment
45th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
91st PA Infantry Division
4th PA Constabulary Regiment
1st PA Constabulary Regiment
2nd PA Constblry HW Regiment
88th PS Field Artillery Regiment
86th PS Coastal Artillery Battalion
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment
Clark Field USAAF Base Force
301st PA Field Artillery Regiment

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One Japanese unit has already been destroyed doing this, turn after turn. The defenders forts are down to level 4, I do believe.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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― Julia Child

(in reply to jdsrae)

Post #: 6

RE: Arty casualties - 4/6/2021 2:21:56 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: George Patton

Ok they are not all in good shape, but no enemy planes is flying there. No aerial bombing by enemy planes.
They have a couple of 155mm coastal guns. The others are no such incredibile guns. All australians.
And about the coastal guns: if they fire against ships unloading, then they fire again against my troops? That�s not fair ��

Many IJ players curse the British 25 pounder gun. It's stats don't look terrific but apparently it is quite effective. If your troops hiked over the Owen-Stanley range, they probably only have mountain guns (short ranged) and could be low on supply for bombardments.

To see how close your disabled squads are to being eliminated, multiply the number of squads by the normal number of troops in the squad when fully staffed. Compare the total to what your unit shows as manpower in the section just right of the picture at top center. IME, when the squads get down to about 5 men left, they are ineffective (disabled) and likely to be eliminated in the next combat).

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to George Patton)

Post #: 7

RE: Arty casualties - 4/7/2021 12:56:35 AM

Nikademus

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Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

casualties have always been a bit excessive in the game. especially when bombarded or hit from air. Used to be far worse, but still a bit over the top utilizing a system that goes with a "disable to destroy" type model which was rather unique for the time. On the other side of the coin, too many turns where little or no results are posted would also generate howls of discontent. Personally, I felt the emphasis on bombardments from all sources should reflect most in disruption, not "casualties". (whether disabled or destroyed)

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Post #: 8

RE: Arty casualties - 4/7/2021 1:16:00 AM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

If you are bombarding with the guns attached to infantry units, those units may draw return fire, and infantry squads are very squishy.

Better to let the dedicated artillery units do the bombarding - there's fewer devices to be hit, and it will keep the squishy infantry from taking the hit from counter-battery fire.

(in reply to George Patton)

Post #: 9

RE: Arty casualties - 4/7/2021 3:24:30 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

casualties have always been a bit excessive in the game. especially when bombarded or hit from air. Used to be far worse, but still a bit over the top utilizing a system that goes with a "disable to destroy" type model which was rather unique for the time. On the other side of the coin, too many turns where little or no results are posted would also generate howls of discontent. Personally, I felt the emphasis on bombardments from all sources should reflect most in disruption, not "casualties". (whether disabled or destroyed)

AFAIK, disruption includes squads whose performance is degraded because of men KIA or WIA. The squad can still fight, but not as effectively as a complete squad. Thus, casualties makes sense with disruption.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 10

RE: Arty casualties - 4/7/2021 6:09:23 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

How about this one with the quality of the defenders:

March 08, 1942

Ground combat at Clark Field (79,76)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 51084 troops, 690 guns, 375 vehicles, Assault Value = 1263

Defending force 33429 troops, 551 guns, 248 vehicles, Assault Value = 1154

Japanese ground losses:
1496 casualties reported
Squads: 82 destroyed, 22 disabled
Non Combat: 17 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 11 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 21 (11 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 13 (11 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
54 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
3rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
19th Division
21st Ind. Engineer Regiment
65th Brigade
48th Division
19th Ind. Engineer Regiment
10th Division
20th Ind. Engineer Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
12th Division
7th Tank Regiment
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
20th Ind. Mtn Gun Battalion
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd RF Gun Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Mortar Regiment
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th RF Gun Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Mortar Battalion
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
20th Army
14th Army
3rd Engineer Construction Battalion

Defending units:
26th PS Cavalry Regiment
31st Infantry Regiment
4th Marine Regiment
14th PS Engineer Regiment
57th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
21st PA Infantry Division
31st PA Infantry Division
Subic Bay Defenses
102nd PA Infantry Regiment
45th PS Infantry Regimental Combat Team
91st PA Infantry Division
4th PA Constabulary Regiment
1st PA Constabulary Regiment
2nd PA Constblry HW Regiment
88th PS Field Artillery Regiment
86th PS Coastal Artillery Battalion
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment
Clark Field USAAF Base Force
301st PA Field Artillery Regiment

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One Japanese unit has already been destroyed doing this, turn after turn. The defenders forts are down to level 4, I do believe.

That's the game's normal behaviour and it's called "counter bombardment". At least that's how it was called on the forum. Never saw a change, utter crazy. Not only because of the usual losses inflicted but due to the fact that if the Allied actually ordered the bombardment, he would have done like nil damage. It's only the counter bombardment that is going off the line so often.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 4/7/2021 6:10:35 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Arty casualties - 4/9/2021 2:36:54 AM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

AFAIK, disruption includes squads whose performance is degraded because of men KIA or WIA. The squad can still fight, but not as effectively as a complete squad. Thus, casualties makes sense with disruption.

Yes, but not when you can instead....just keep bombarding over time, and literally wipe out a unit by the rinse and repeat method. Hence my desire to see more disruption and morale impact vs. physical casualties to create opportunities to make inroads over time. short term by disruption....long term by morale. If bombardment was that absolute then ground forces would have truly been obsolete....especially in terrain that benefits defense. In AE I've seen whole divisions totally made non factors simply by assigning several bomber forces to keep attacking daily. individual results may be reasonable.....but over time....added together it equates eventually to anhilation.

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Post #: 12

RE: Arty casualties - 4/9/2021 8:51:59 AM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

AFAIK, disruption includes squads whose performance is degraded because of men KIA or WIA. The squad can still fight, but not as effectively as a complete squad. Thus, casualties makes sense with disruption.

Yes, but not when you can instead....just keep bombarding over time, and literally wipe out a unit by the rinse and repeat method. Hence my desire to see more disruption and morale impact vs. physical casualties to create opportunities to make inroads over time. short term by disruption....long term by morale. If bombardment was that absolute then ground forces would have truly been obsolete....especially in terrain that benefits defense. In AE I've seen whole divisions totally made non factors simply by assigning several bomber forces to keep attacking daily. individual results may be reasonable.....but over time....added together it equates eventually to anhilation.

I don't see the problem where you see it. Effective bombardment requires a ton of things - heavy guns, open terrain, inadequate fortifications, weak counter-battery. I see no problem that opponent is eventually dead when shells keep raining from the sky. Yet the destruction is slow. Try for once to keep bombarding a division in a controlled setting using a reasonable amount of guns and see how many months it takes to destroy it. Where I may have problems with WITP is counter-battery fire that targets not only the batteries but every other squad in a unit, like if infantry is always camping around artillery positions.

Then, bombers are a very different matter. Airforce is effective against ground forces, you know. It's their main job. Russians were being pulverized by German aviation in 41, and it was a huge contribution to the initial success of Barbarossa. Allied aviation was a bane of Western front Germans.

(in reply to Nikademus)

Post #: 13

RE: Arty casualties - 4/11/2021 8:46:53 PM

HansBolter