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Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/12/2021 6:22:44 PM   
jarraya

 

Posts: 321
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		Having only played WITW, it seems to me that German air operational losses are very high (compared to a WITW scenario) in the first four turns. For the veterans, is this normal?

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/12/2021 7:21:11 PM   
Bamilus


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From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		Not a vet, but have played WITW. If you use default AI AD's set up on turn 1, yes. You will get anywhere from like 200-600 losses, which is insane. You can spend one minute and just move the AD's back into escort range and dial those losses down to 200 max. Also can reduce intensity. If you play with it even more you can get better results.

I'm not a Luftwaffe expert but over course of campaign using mainly ground support and recon, I can't say my planes were hurt that badly. Here's an SS from Turn 28 (Dec 28th 1941 I think) of my game vs AI on normal. Doing manual air ware but nothing fancy, just resting units below 50 morale, rotating depleted units, and not abusing ground support or recon. I'm a few hundred more aircraft lost than historically but my pilots are only like -100 vs full amount needed. With a lot more time focused on air war I could do a lot better, but just showing what even a small amount of manual can do. I never use AI assist.

I think my first turn air phase, spending only 5 minutes making broad stroke AD's, was like 200 losses to 2.5K Soviets, which isn't even that good, but leaps better than AI.



< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/12/2021 7:26:29 PM >

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 10:43:36 AM   
Sly

 

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Status: offline 		It's nice to meet WitW veterans.

I also have the impression that the level of losses due to any activity in the air is too high. I read the manual under this account, it is specifically written that two missions, i.e. naval interdiction and superiority, are less vulnerable to anti-aircraft ground fire.
But what about Recon Missions?
They are easily intercepted and suffer heavy losses from fighters (compared to Witw) and are under heavy fire from anti-aircraft fire.
I practically limited them to two days a week and for that a fighter escort is needed, which of course is needed elsewhere.

Overall, the game looks very good, but in my opinion there is something wrong


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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 10:47:06 AM   
stryc

 

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Status: offline 		Air ops losses do seem rather on the hot side, for both sides.

Not just ops. There doesn't seem to be any point at which a flight bugs out due to mounting losses; they just keep on going until they're all down.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 1:45:04 PM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc

Air ops losses do seem rather on the hot side, for both sides.

Not just ops. There doesn't seem to be any point at which a flight bugs out due to mounting losses; they just keep on going until they're all down.


This is definitely an issue. The Soviet AI also likes to run long range strategic bombing in July/August and each of my campaigns they end up losing like 1-2K aircraft from that alone. They'll send 200 aircraft on a single bombing run to Konigsberg and all will get shot down.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 3:59:15 PM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

This is definitely an issue. The Soviet AI also likes to run long range strategic bombing in July/August and each of my campaigns they end up losing like 1-2K aircraft from that alone. They'll send 200 aircraft on a single bombing run to Konigsberg and all will get shot down.


I would report this as a bug, that kind of suicidal bombing runs do not sound intentional.

Could be that the air losses in general are tuned up quite high. AA losses seem ok to me, but haven't really done any experiments.


< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/13/2021 4:00:09 PM >

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 4:16:01 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
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From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		It's been reported in tech support and other places. I made a post on the Soviet runs and Joel respond and someone else made a post on bombers not disengaging. I really don't have a problem with Soviets doing strategic bombing in 41, per se, but that combined with the disengagement logic ostensibly not working makes for massive suicide losses.

It sounds like the disengagement thing might be harder to tweak/fix, so Gary just probably needs to tone back the AI logic in strategic bombing in 41.

Honestly though, I disagree with the above posters. I don't have find Axis air losses to be that high, at least compared to historically. I also disagree that recon are easily intercepted. If you run recon on 17K altitude I never get intercepted. All my recon losses are operational and I think they make sense given A) the Axis recon planes suck B) I run a decent amount of recon.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/13/2021 4:19:31 PM >

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 5:25:25 PM   
jacktimes2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

If you run recon on 17K altitude I never get intercepted.


Interesting. I’ll have to try that. How effective are recon directives at that altitude?

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 6:07:12 PM   
Bamilus


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Status: offline 		Effective enough to find their lines. I normally run interdiction vs unit recon missions. I haven't played a ton of WITW but I think people need to understand that historically there was a lot less recon in the East than there was in France/Italy in 43/44. I think it's wrong expect to have the same results as WITW which is an entire different theater with entirely different circumstances and different aircraft.

The Germans were frequently blind-sided by Soviet formations throughout the entire war and also had notoriously terrible pre-war intelligence/recon of Soviet positions.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/13/2021 6:08:42 PM >

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 6:14:37 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		Recon directive altitudes are used by the aircraft assigned in transit to/from the target hex. When they reach the target hex they will change altitude to the proper one for the observation equipment (low level camera, mid level camera, high level camera, MK I eyeball, etc.) the aircraft has. I will note that it is usually best to have the path altitude somewhat close to a good altitude for cameras as the recon aircraft will perform recon from and to the target hex. 17,000 altitude is a good mix for the camera systems - not optimal but good enough type thing. Too high or low and the aircraft may not be performing as well for range and speed. 17,000 also has the benefit of being above what most people set their Air Superiority at and there is an altitude difference where the fighters will not be able to intercept (I think 5,000 but I could be totally wrong here).

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 7:05:02 PM   
MechFO

 

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Status: offline 		Effective height for Low Alt Level camera is 16800, so 17k is good for those. Units with High Alt have an effective height in the 30's, so I go with mid 20's for those.

In general Ops losses may seem high but a lot of sources of regular ops losses are missing in the game f.e. movement of air groups. After a few dozen turns it doesn't seem out of place, maybe even on the low side. The first few turns are a bit deceptive due to the long ranges and very intensive operational pace.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 8:42:56 PM   
Rexzapper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
Effective height for Low Alt Level camera is 16800, so 17k is good for those. Units with High Alt have an effective height in the 30's, so I go with mid 20's for those.


Effective height for Low Level camera is 12000, 16800 is max ceiling.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 8:45:17 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rexzapper

quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
Effective height for Low Alt Level camera is 16800, so 17k is good for those. Units with High Alt have an effective height in the 30's, so I go with mid 20's for those.


Effective height for Low Level camera is 12000, 16800 is max ceiling.


doesn't actually matter

altitude is what the planes use to/from the target area, they adjust height over the actual target zone to the best fit to their current load out

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 9:05:17 PM   
Rexzapper

 

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Status: offline 		But in the case of reconnaissance missions it is different. They will observe everything on their way from staging base to target. If this route is carried out at an unsuitable height for their cameras, they will not carry out reconnaissance "en route" (or not effectively).

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 9:34:37 PM   
jarraya

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for all the replies. I hope the devs will have a look at this issue.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 9:54:20 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		This has been a subject of great debate for months/years in the test forum. Op losses are high, intentionally so. For some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. Are they too high, maybe. However, during the war well over half of Soviet air losses were operational losses. I'm actually of the belief that the massive (80-100%) losses that the Soviets can suffer in their missions that get intercepted are likely more unrealistic than the high op losses. We will continue to monitor the results we see in AARs and various posts, but no changes are in the works or anticipated anytime soon.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 10:08:21 PM   
fritzfarlig


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Status: offline 		I understand recon altitude come automatic not like WITW, I will go for the highest

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 11:04:28 PM   
Karri

 

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Status: offline 		Operational losses are quite low when the mission ranges are short. During Barbarossa, the planes suffer just like the rest of the units.

OTOH, ground support causes way too high casualties. For Axis, because from time to time you forget to turn it off when doing attacks far ahead, which means that the planes fly without escorts and get shot down. For the Soviets, any battle where Axis can bring sufficient numbers will result in an almost total wipeout. There should always be air superiority resolution in the hex that is attacked, and if the results are skewed too hard in either direction then the mission should be cancelled.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/13/2021 11:15:33 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
There should always be air superiority resolution in the hex that is attacked, and if the results are skewed too hard in either direction then the mission should be cancelled.


It would be nice if fighter units projected a kind of air inderdiction value like what is done for naval interdiciton for sea hexes. This would lead to some kind of value of absolute friendly control, contested and absolute enemy control. If in contested, unescorted might still fly, but will avoid absolute enemy controlled areas. As I understand it, this already happens for Air Superiority missions, but there needs be a passive generation of this value by fighter units.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/14/2021 12:23:08 AM   
dudefan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
There should always be air superiority resolution in the hex that is attacked, and if the results are skewed too hard in either direction then the mission should be cancelled.


It would be nice if fighter units projected a kind of air inderdiction value like what is done for naval interdiciton for sea hexes. This would lead to some kind of value of absolute friendly control, contested and absolute enemy control. If in contested, unescorted might still fly, but will avoid absolute enemy controlled areas. As I understand it, this already happens for Air Superiority missions, but there needs be a passive generation of this value by fighter units.


Interesting idea

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/14/2021 12:51:52 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Operational losses are quite low when the mission ranges are short. During Barbarossa, the planes suffer just like the rest of the units.

OTOH, ground support causes way too high casualties. For Axis, because from time to time you forget to turn it off when doing attacks far ahead, which means that the planes fly without escorts and get shot down. For the Soviets, any battle where Axis can bring sufficient numbers will result in an almost total wipeout. There should always be air superiority resolution in the hex that is attacked, and if the results are skewed too hard in either direction then the mission should be cancelled.

Not just mission ranges but distance from the Staging Base as well. Make all distances as short as possible. Probably make the Staging base a Fighter base?

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/14/2021 1:43:01 PM   
DoctorHaider

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

This has been a subject of great debate for months/years in the test forum. Op losses are high, intentionally so. For some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. Are they too high, maybe. However, during the war well over half of Soviet air losses were operational losses. I'm actually of the belief that the massive (80-100%) losses that the Soviets can suffer in their missions that get intercepted are likely more unrealistic than the high op losses. We will continue to monitor the results we see in AARs and various posts, but no changes are in the works or anticipated anytime soon.

quote:

This has been a subject of great debate for months/years in the test forum. Op losses are high, intentionally so. For some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. Are they too high, maybe. However, during the war well over half of Soviet air losses were operational losses. I'm actually of the belief that the massive (80-100%) losses that the Soviets can suffer in their missions that get intercepted are likely more unrealistic than the high op losses. We will continue to monitor the results we see in AARs and various posts, but no changes are in the works or anticipated anytime soon.


Good point, thanks.

But I wonder why the pilot losses over the operational losses of planes are almost equal? In the scope of the all possible operational loss reasons the probabilities to survive look more favorable than in the direct combat.

Also imo too much Soviet pilots KIA at turn 1 for the ground plane losses. In reality the plane losses vastly excedeed the pilot losses after the Axis airbase attack campaign.

< Message edited by DoctorHaider -- 4/14/2021 1:48:13 PM >

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/14/2021 5:18:51 PM   
zuekamo

 

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Status: offline 		not sure about that.

missions with altitude 9000 always give the best recon values.

a recon mission with a middle camera at 9000 is better than a mission with a middle camera at 24000


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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/15/2021 12:17:03 PM   
Sly

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 9/1/2010
Status: offline 		Returning to the main topic, I agree with the opinion that in the case of operational losses, the losses of pilots are the most painful.
As stated in the manual:
The crews of the destroyed planes will be for the phase player
90 percent of the crew was destroyed and 10 percent
captured. Player planes that are not phased will have 100
percentage of their KIA crew if the plane is destroyed.
Since the op losses level is intentionally high, pilots should have a better chance of survival. In the end, Rudel was reportedly shot down 13 times, if I remember correctly. As a virtual pilot, he wouldn't have had any chance of survival.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/15/2021 2:43:27 PM   
stryc

 

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Status: offline 		I am new to this game and I'm trying to understand why my Recon ops loses on the first few turns of the Road To Leningrad scenario are so fantastically high.

I am being conservative with my recon assets, running them maybe twice a week (if that), at low intensity, often over small (4) areas, and at short-medium range, but the Ops loss rate is still enormous. After a mere two turns of zero enemy air opposition, avoiding major flak sources, and flying in fine weather, I've lost nearly 50% of my recon assets to, as best as I can tell, almost nothing at all. In two turns.

Clearly I don't understand what's going on.

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/15/2021 2:53:59 PM   
First_Contact_Gamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc

I am new to this game and I'm trying to understand why my Recon ops loses on the first few turns of the Road To Leningrad scenario are so fantastically high.

I am being conservative with my recon assets, running them maybe twice a week (if that), at low intensity, often over small (4) areas, and at short-medium range, but the Ops loss rate is still enormous. After a mere two turns of zero enemy air opposition, avoiding major flak sources, and flying in fine weather, I've lost nearly 50% of my recon assets to, as best as I can tell, almost nothing at all. In two turns.

Clearly I don't understand what's going on.


You seem to have covered a lot of the triggers that can impact operational losses but one that I don't see mentioned is the condition of your airbases, are they damaged? This can be found in the manual in 4.5.8

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RE: Operational losses very high (Axis side '41 Campaign) - 4/15/2021 3:11:17 PM   
stryc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: First_Contact_Gamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc

I am new to this game and I'm trying to understand why my Recon ops loses on the first few turns of the Road To Leningrad scenario are so fantastically high.

I am being conservative with my recon assets, running them maybe twice a week (if that), at low intensity, often over small (4) areas, and at short-medium range, but the Ops loss rate is still enormous. After a mere two turns of zero enemy air opposition, avoiding major flak sources, and flying in fine weather, I've lost nearly 50% of my recon assets to, as best as I can tell, almost nothing at all. In two turns.

Clearly I don't understand what's going on.

You seem to have covered a lot of the triggers that can impact operational losses but one that I don't see mentioned is the condition of your airbases, are they damaged? This can be found in the manual in 4.5.8

No damage. Green lights across the board. (Well, a few warnings for slight overstacking on some but only by ~10%.)

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