What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the southern front?

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What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the southern front?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the southern front?

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What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the south... - 4/11/2021 7:47:19 AM

Beethoven1

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If Germany goes south & west of hex # 187, 187, the Southern Front is activated on the first Soviet turn.

However, is it really such a horrible thing for Germany if that happens? What am I missing here?

Looking at it, I am not sure I understand why Germany players prioritize avoiding this. The screenshot attached to this post shows the initial Soviet deployment. All the troops directly to the north of Romania, in the area around the Dnestr river, are in the Soviet Southwest Front. The only troops in the Southern front who may ever be frozen are the ones in Bessarabia (as well as further back to Odessa, but if those ones further back want to escape in the first turn or 2, they shouldn't have much trouble regardless).

If the troops north of Romania were frozen if Germany didn't go South/west of 187, 187, then it would pretty clearly be worth it for Germany to be sure not to activate the Southern Front. But they are not, they are in the Southwest front, and consequently can run away and escape regardless of whether Germany exceeds the threshold.

The other two screenshots here, are from HLYA's AAR:

I will assume that this is more or less the most Southern Front troops that can be encircled on turn 1 (if they are frozen).

How many divisions is this?

In southern Bessarabia there is actually only one infantry division fully encircled. There are 2 other INF/CAV that are in Romanian zones of control and probably will have a hard time escaping. Let's be charitable and count them as being "doomed," even though they won't be isolated next turn and will eat up Axis movement points and slow them down for at least one more turn. In northern Bessarabia there are 4 other divisions (the tank, mountaineer, the infantry, and 1 infantry not visible behind the HQ). The ones in the north also are not encircled just by Romania alone, but with the Panzer corps that HLYA sent south, those are probably not all fully encircleable by Romania alone unless Germany chooses to divert some Panzers there.

Add those together and you have a max of ~9 divisions of regular troops which can be realistically encircled on Turn 2 if they remain frozen, or 5 if you don't count the ones in the south that won't actually be isolated right away, or even maybe as low as 1 if you also didn't count the divisions in northern Bessarabia that are encircled by German tanks coming from the Tarnopol-Proskurov area.

By contrast, there are something more like 20 full regular Soviet divisions in the Southwestern Front in the area from Lvov to Tarnopol and south to the Romanian border. Those divisions are also of higher quality due to the higher Southwestern Front morale (and equipment), so they are more worthwhile to Germany to eliminate quickly.

It is true that if Germany does what HLYA did, you can get BOTH those troops in the Southwestern Front and also encircle the divisions in the frozen Southern Front. But to accomplish that, he sent all of the German mobile units as far east as humanly possible on turn 1, and didn't encircle basically anything on turn 1. That is a pretty substantial opportunity cost to pay.

Perhaps otherwise those mobile units could have isolated at least a large chunk of the SW front troops between Lvov/Tarnopol Romania on turn #1 and also another pocket (probably not a huge one, but nevertheless) in the area further north around Dubno/Brody/etc, which includes a lot of good tank/mech divisions in that area that should be particularly valuable to encircle.

Is this not feasible? Or if it is feasible, what is so bad about activating the Southern Front that makes it a bad idea to do?

If it is just a matter of capturing the rail to get the rail repair going, I would think that is not an issue, because you should be able to pretty much capture Lvov with infantry (and should be able to get to Tarnpol), and that is further than the FBD can make it on turn 1 anyway.

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 7:55:16 AM

Beethoven1

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Here is an illustration of what it seems to me like you could do, similar to the WITE 1 Lvov pockets.

The blue lines are roughly the German lines of advance, and the yellow circles represent approximate areas for potential pockets.

First, you get the usual small pocket north-west of Lvov with maybe a few infantry divisions at most (since that is all that is there.

Second, you have some sort of pocket south of Tarnopol and Lvov, extending to the Romanian border. Ideally this would go as far as C). I tried to form a pocket going as far as C) and it seemed like it was just on the edge of whether it was possible to do or not. I came 1-2 hexes short on a first try, but I was probably not doing it the best way. But if you could not get pocket C), it should be possible to at least get as far in the south as to get pocket B. And failing anything else, pocket A.

Meanwhile in the north around Dubno/Brody, ideally you would get a pocket as large as #2 (the blue lines on the illustration) getting to Rovno, but if that were not achievable it should still be possible to get a smaller pocket (which looks like it could bag up to 5 or so tank divisions as well as a few infantry) as #1 (the red lines on the illustration).

Is this possible? If so, why is it so bad to do this just because it would activate the Southern Front?

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 8:01:08 AM

sven6345789

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I guess the idea behind this activation rule is to minimize the chance of players peltonizing the game.

There will be those who use ANY possible exploits the game offers them, no matter how gamey it may seem.

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 9:34:07 AM

loki100

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the real question is why do this?

If pushing PG1 south towards the Black Sea is your big goal then fine, but not sure otherwise?

To put that in context, in WiTE1 pockets were the only way to destroy the Red Army so we got the endless reworking of the Lvov fantasy to optimise that. In #2, sustained combat or simply being weak with low morale, triggers shatters. So the front line formations of S and SW front are actually doomed in any case.

Now the VP, and real goals of the Ukraine are east of the start line, not SE.

to be honest, if I was the Soviet and the German did this to me, it wouldn't worry me one little bit. Those Pzrs are now stretched for supply, that won't matter on T2-3 due to what they start with, but it brings the point where it does matter a lot closer

< Message edited by loki100 -- 4/11/2021 9:36:58 AM >

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 11:53:15 AM

carlkay58

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It is a strategy call. The reason the Southern Front is activated if you go past that point is that you could encircle the entire Southern Front if this did not happen. So it is a method to keep the Axis player from being able to destroy the majority of the Southern Front before it is able to do anything.

If your strategy is to destroy/pocket as much of the Southwestern Front as possible on turn 1 you can do that - but the Soviets will be able to recover/react using the Southern Front too. Some strategies do not care what happens with the Southern Front while others might.

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 4:02:41 PM

Beethoven1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

the real question is why do this?

If pushing PG1 south towards the Black Sea is your big goal then fine, but not sure otherwise?

To put that in context, in WiTE1 pockets were the only way to destroy the Red Army so we got the endless reworking of the Lvov fantasy to optimise that. In #2, sustained combat or simply being weak with low morale, triggers shatters. So the front line formations of S and SW front are actually doomed in any case.

Now the VP, and real goals of the Ukraine are east of the start line, not SE.

to be honest, if I was the Soviet and the German did this to me, it wouldn't worry me one little bit. Those Pzrs are now stretched for supply, that won't matter on T2-3 due to what they start with, but it brings the point where it does matter a lot closer

In theory it is true that you can get shatters, but in practice I at least have not seen that much so far. I may well have simply not played enough, since I am new to the game though. I didn't play that much WITE 1, but I did try playing Soviets in it (with very buffed German AI to try to get a decent challenge), and I think I saw at least as many shatters in that (probably more) as I have so far in WITE 2.

The other things that seem to me like advantages of encirclement relative to bashing the Soviets head on with sustained combat are:

a) Germany should take a lot lower losses from encirclements than sustained combat, and hence be able to push better 5-10 turns down the road. In particular some of the SW front tank divisions seem pretty strong in heads on fighting and can destroy significant numbers of German tanks.

b) Encirclement wipes Soviet units off the map (at least for 9 turns or so), which means Soviets can't use those units to delay the advance with zones of control and should have less defense in depth, which presumably should help keep up the pace of German advance. Having counters on the map with ZOC to delay and retreat seems very important to me, though maybe I underestimate its impact.

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 5:00:36 PM

carlkay58

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There is a retreat penalty in increased casualties for units with morale < 55 which covers just about ALL of the Soviet Army in 41 & 42. This increase only occurs when the unit is the target of a Deliberate Attack after turn 1. This increase can be deadly to the Soviets and the increase in casualties happens after it is determined that the unit must retreat and before checking for ROUT or SHATTERED results. It was discovered and illustrated during playtesting that a Soviet unit in good TOE (80+) and Morale (50) would normally survive a RETREAT result without routing. But you then follow that up with the panzers and hit it with a Hasty Attack and the unit will SHATTER/ROUT/DEPLETE just about every time.

It is possible to cause over 100K in Soviet casualties a turn without pockets just through the use of the Deliberate Attacks by both infantry and panzer units in the game now. So this negates some of the importance and necessity of pocket forming. My opinion is that forming pockets and forcing Soviet Tank and Mech Divisions to surrender is vitally important now to the Axis for capturing those Soviet trucks. The Axis really needs those trucks in 41 and the winter of 42. If you look at my AAR you see that I have captured about 40K Soviet trucks but my pool is only about 4K going into the winter. Imagine what my supply situation would be with 40K less trucks.

< Message edited by carlkay58 -- 4/11/2021 5:01:59 PM >

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 5:33:54 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

There is a retreat penalty in increased casualties for units with morale < 55 which covers just about ALL of the Soviet Army in 41 & 42. This increase only occurs when the unit is the target of a Deliberate Attack after turn 1. This increase can be deadly to the Soviets and the increase in casualties happens after it is determined that the unit must retreat and before checking for ROUT or SHATTERED results. It was discovered and illustrated during playtesting that a Soviet unit in good TOE (80+) and Morale (50) would normally survive a RETREAT result without routing. But you then follow that up with the panzers and hit it with a Hasty Attack and the unit will SHATTER/ROUT/DEPLETE just about every time.

It is possible to cause over 100K in Soviet casualties a turn without pockets just through the use of the Deliberate Attacks by both infantry and panzer units in the game now. So this negates some of the importance and necessity of pocket forming. My opinion is that forming pockets and forcing Soviet Tank and Mech Divisions to surrender is vitally important now to the Axis for capturing those Soviet trucks. The Axis really needs those trucks in 41 and the winter of 42. If you look at my AAR you see that I have captured about 40K Soviet trucks but my pool is only about 4K going into the winter. Imagine what my supply situation would be with 40K less trucks.

exactly

I've seen battle reports end with say 200 or so Soviet losses, trigger a retreat and this escalate to 4,000+. Now the Soviets are living hand to mouth for manpower till they get that allocation in December so essentially that rifle division isn't coming back into action any time soon.

and by forcing my opponent to use his tank divisions, I'm actually +ve for trucks over the opening turns

as ever, the strong advice is not to think in terms of WiTE1.

Now is pushing PG1 south a good idea on T1? Yes, if it fits your strategy and what you are trying to achieve. But in any case you'll get Odessa around T8/9, and by the early Autumn S Front will be a shell in any case.

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 5:52:28 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

There is a retreat penalty in increased casualties for units with morale < 55 which covers just about ALL of the Soviet Army in 41 & 42. This increase only occurs when the unit is the target of a Deliberate Attack after turn 1. This increase can be deadly to the Soviets and the increase in casualties happens after it is determined that the unit must retreat and before checking for ROUT or SHATTERED results. It was discovered and illustrated during playtesting that a Soviet unit in good TOE (80+) and Morale (50) would normally survive a RETREAT result without routing. But you then follow that up with the panzers and hit it with a Hasty Attack and the unit will SHATTER/ROUT/DEPLETE just about every time.

It is possible to cause over 100K in Soviet casualties a turn without pockets just through the use of the Deliberate Attacks by both infantry and panzer units in the game now. So this negates some of the importance and necessity of pocket forming. My opinion is that forming pockets and forcing Soviet Tank and Mech Divisions to surrender is vitally important now to the Axis for capturing those Soviet trucks. The Axis really needs those trucks in 41 and the winter of 42. If you look at my AAR you see that I have captured about 40K Soviet trucks but my pool is only about 4K going into the winter. Imagine what my supply situation would be with 40K less trucks.

exactly

I've seen battle reports end with say 200 or so Soviet losses, trigger a retreat and this escalate to 4,000+. Now the Soviets are living hand to mouth for manpower till they get that allocation in December so essentially that rifle division isn't coming back into action any time soon.

and by forcing my opponent to use his tank divisions, I'm actually +ve for trucks over the opening turns

as ever, the strong advice is not to think in terms of WiTE1.

Now is pushing PG1 south a good idea on T1? Yes, if it fits your strategy and what you are trying to achieve. But in any case you'll get Odessa around T8/9, and by the early Autumn S Front will be a shell in any case.

I hate to say this but the Soviet Armor/Mech capture from WITE1 has returned once again with both of you stressing how important it is to pursue these Soviet units as Germany. That is why I remove them from the front lines if at all possible and if put in they are in 2nd & 3rd lines. Sorry to say but many things in WITE2 are rhyming very well with WITE1. Not exactly 100% but close enough to use some of the exact same tactics and strats. You will also not the stress on manpower and thus why I am micromanaging everything.

When you get a unit that is depleted or take massive losses I will merge the units instead of letting multiple units sit useless. Granted I have yet to play beyond turn 1 but surely it is manageable to scrounge units together this way.

Most of the BETA AAR's were Germany doing a semi Lvov pocket or releasing the Southern Front. I wanted to try something different and found that locking down the Southern front I could reap more units in the South while using 2nd panzer from the Center. Then on turn 2 I could push further & capture more while sending PZ's through Rumania 2nd turn. To me the net benefit of locking down Southern front paid nicely in BETA in my two games there & so far in my Game with 821Bobo. But in a nutshell you have to decide which is beneficial for you. I can say that my game on not using 2nd PZ in the South has been extremely hard going with very high casualties :(

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/11/2021 6:01:34 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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Just do the count of units you can capture on the Southern front freezure on turn 2 and compare that to an extended Lvov pocket. Net men wise which one is better in the long run after capture?

Just a tip here in the photo your yellow circle is off on what can be captured going Lvov South. You will be out of MPs before getting close to there in post 2. You will have to attack the mountain and armor division South East of Strislav to get the pocket to the Rumanian border. You can't get to the east of Chrnovtsy at all no matter what you do. So "C" isnt going to happen. You have to have perfect combat to move all the units to even dream of accomplishing C. But hey, maybe I am wrong. "B" is the same issue. "A" is duable but needs to be a bit to the east.

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/17/2021 1:57:53 PM

Farfarer61

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Thx for the posts. To be clear, is your preferred strategy NOT to activate/release the Southern Front on T1 ? Is that what you mean my "locking down" ? Or do you mean something different ?

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RE: What is so bad (for Germany) about activating the s... - 4/17/2021 4:23:12 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer61

Thx for the posts. To be clear, is your preferred strategy NOT to activate/release the Southern Front on T1 ? Is that what you mean my "locking down" ? Or do you mean something different ?

I prefer "not" to have Southern Front released. I want them to stay locked down Soviet T1 because even with the Rumanians I can surround almost all of them. You can check out my two German AAR's and see how I do that on turn 2.

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