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Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War.

 
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Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 4:13:38 PM   
RG11B19D

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 4/20/2020
Status: offline 		Ever wanted to crush the Soviet Air Force and feel like you changed history?

This is how an accident changed my game.

1. Set up game with the AI controlling the Luftwaffe.
2. Clear all air directives. (Because you want learn how to do it).
3. Become distracted by real life and walk away from computer.
4. Come back and without thinking immediately press button to complete Air Phase.
5. Sit back and watch nothing happen. Zero missions flown.
6. Feel like a dunce.
7. Realize you have to restart game.
8. Mentally say screw it and move the ground forces.
9. Watch as your fighters completely dominate the air space.
10. Feel dirty and elated all at the same time.

Screen shot says it all.
Soviet pilot loses through the roof.
German loses minimal.

I'd like some other players to try this. Let us know what your results are.

This has become my new opening air tactic.
Lure the Soviet air force into the sky and beat it there instead of the ground.

This was done a week ago. Had to wait to be able to post screenshot.
Thanks for reading.







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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 4:39:16 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		AWESOME, glad you found this GEM.

I did this exact thing in this AAR :)

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4993481

(in reply to RG11B19D)
Post #: 2
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 4:40:57 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		yes, the GS gambit really does a number on the VVS, not least it kills pilots as well.

Fwiw, I think its still worth some D1 airbase work just to set the scene so to speak

edit look at post 6 in this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932

may give you some idea of the value of keeping some airbase bombing in the set up

< Message edited by loki100 -- 4/14/2021 4:42:23 PM >

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 4:42:23 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

To me it is actually a much better opening for the air than bombing airfield because of the Pilot kills. Not to mention this is defiantly for people that want to take the easy road on the first turn instead of spending hours on bombing missions ;-)

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Post #: 4
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 5:00:00 PM   
TheFerret

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 3/9/2021
Status: offline 		Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".

...though that's probably not even the problem; the Luftwaffe should have much higher losses if the VVS is left free to fly in the opening days of Barbarossa. Or auto-intercept of enemy ground support should be less deadly or happen less often - I doubt the Luftwaffe could have CAP everywhere along the entire line of contact at all hours of the day, so if the VVS was left free to fly you'd expect a not-insignificant number of ground support missions to drop their payload and get out before the Bf-109s show up. I feel like you should only get nearly guaranteed intercept when fighting under an Air Superiority directive representing proactive fighter sweeps of the battlespace - at the cost of miles flown, fatigue, and higher ops losses.

In any case, you can improve those numbers by bombing around Romania at least. Bombing some fighter bases will shift losses away from fighter-bombers and toward level bombers.

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 5:40:12 PM   
RG11B19D

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 4/20/2020
Status: offline 		Many "Thanks", for the replies and links.

I imagine sometime in the future this will be adjusted to better recreate the A2A battles that result from not bombing airfields. Until that day, this works well. I'll play around with it and incorporate some airfield attacks, recon missions and ground support.

Currently trying out retraining all Me-110's from bombing to fighters. Takes 8 weeks.

Really enjoying this wargame. The endorphins it produces makes me a happy gamer.

(in reply to TheFerret)
Post #: 6
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 7:41:02 PM   
sw30

 

Posts: 410
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: San Francisco, CA
Status: offline 		I wonder if it's worth it to send unescorted bombers on D1 against Mech/Armor units instead of airfields. Most Mech/Armor units don't have flak covering them, and this way, you get to use your TAC/LBs against targets instead of having them useless. Then have your fighters do the normal coverage and nail the soviet airforce in the air.

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Post #: 7
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/14/2021 10:19:01 PM   
dudefan

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/26/2021
Status: offline 		Ground support without bombers is the way to go as axis. a bit gamey though

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Post #: 8
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/15/2021 3:24:23 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFerret
Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".


LOL! I love that sentence.

Random fun fact, I heard once that apparently the VVS actually *did* do desperation kamikaze attacks (crippled plane, out of ammo in desperate fight, that sort of thing), but with one important difference from the IJN in '45: The pilot would bail out after lining up the attack because they couldn't see any point of dying with their plane.

"I let plane crash into tank. I get new plane, I try to do better tomorrow."

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Post #: 9
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/16/2021 7:35:38 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Interesting.I cancelled all AI air missions except one and game crashed.

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Post #: 10
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/16/2021 10:08:54 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFerret
Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".


LOL! I love that sentence.

Random fun fact, I heard once that apparently the VVS actually *did* do desperation kamikaze attacks (crippled plane, out of ammo in desperate fight, that sort of thing), but with one important difference from the IJN in '45: The pilot would bail out after lining up the attack because they couldn't see any point of dying with their plane.

"I let plane crash into tank. I get new plane, I try to do better tomorrow."


I think the logic was actually more grim. I read of Soviet night fighter pilots (without radar etc) who got lost and didn't dare land at an airfield as they weren't sure if it was Axis or Soviet - if it was Axis they would be accused of defecting with consequences for their family (so better to crash without fuel and hope they were in Soviet territory). A few of the Soviet 'ramming' outcomes could have been driven by a similar calculation

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/17/2021 2:17:27 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFerret
Soviet starting ADs should probably not be set to "make the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service circa 1945 look like a responsible air force that values its pilots' lives".


LOL! I love that sentence.

Random fun fact, I heard once that apparently the VVS actually *did* do desperation kamikaze attacks (crippled plane, out of ammo in desperate fight, that sort of thing), but with one important difference from the IJN in '45: The pilot would bail out after lining up the attack because they couldn't see any point of dying with their plane.

"I let plane crash into tank. I get new plane, I try to do better tomorrow."


I think the logic was actually more grim. I read of Soviet night fighter pilots (without radar etc) who got lost and didn't dare land at an airfield as they weren't sure if it was Axis or Soviet - if it was Axis they would be accused of defecting with consequences for their family (so better to crash without fuel and hope they were in Soviet territory). A few of the Soviet 'ramming' outcomes could have been driven by a similar calculation


Well, I had heard it an interview with an old Russian pilot talking about it, he seemed kinda proud of it. But I also have no doubt that what you describe happened as well. That is kinda the nature of the Soviet side of the war, acts of bravery and heroism, and other acts where they were more afraid of their own side than they were the enemy.

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Post #: 12
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/17/2021 3:59:46 PM   
RG11B19D

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 4/20/2020
Status: offline 		Another test run without airfield attacks. Using the the latest update.








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Post #: 13
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/17/2021 5:07:44 PM   
Farfarer61

 

Posts: 713
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		In WITE1 I stopped doing Axis air missions on T1 very early on. Posted several times. Just some recce. I think it also screws up the Soviet supply system as the Red Air Force demands supply.

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Post #: 14
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/17/2021 9:53:56 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Did you turn on and off ground support to maximize VVS losses and minimize Luftwaffe losses? I've decided to start a new campaign testing out this method, and I have had higher LW losses already - 132 pilots, 134 Fighter-Bombers, 3 fighters - only with Army Group North done and the northern half of AGC infantry battles done.

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Post #: 15
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/18/2021 4:09:34 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Did you turn on and off ground support to maximize VVS losses and minimize Luftwaffe losses? I've decided to start a new campaign testing out this method, and I have had higher LW losses already - 132 pilots, 134 Fighter-Bombers, 3 fighters - only with Army Group North done and the northern half of AGC infantry battles done.


Could probably leave the ground support off for the first turn until the VVS fighter fleet is thinned out?
Just a thought, haven't tried it.

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Post #: 16
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/18/2021 11:45:30 AM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		That indeed seems to have helped out, neuromancer. I turned off ground support for the initial Army Group North moves with the infantry into Lithuania. I've turned it on for the few border battles with 16th Army, and I've scored over 800 VVS pilot deaths for about 54 Luftwaffe pilots in total so far, without advancing the bulk of 16th Army towards Kaunas and without moving PzGr 4.

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Post #: 17
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/18/2021 4:51:23 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		The more I see of the air war, the less I believe in it as an abstraction of reality. Combat losses are brutal, often total, AI interception is indiscriminately aggressive, Soviet early war fighters are far more effective than historical accounts suggest, if realistic numbers of Axis aircraft are damaged, they are repaired too quickly but it seems too many of both sides are destroyed. This part of the game really looks unfinished to me.

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/18/2021 5:51:20 PM   
mrblonde1


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/6/2018
Status: offline 		With few airfields bombed in Romania.


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Post #: 19
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/19/2021 3:34:24 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32
That indeed seems to have helped out, neuromancer. I turned off ground support for the initial Army Group North moves with the infantry into Lithuania. I've turned it on for the few border battles with 16th Army, and I've scored over 800 VVS pilot deaths for about 54 Luftwaffe pilots in total so far, without advancing the bulk of 16th Army towards Kaunas and without moving PzGr 4.


Cool.

I noticed that in my games, when I flew my ground support my losses would climb in both bombers and fighters, but if I didn't, the Bf-109s would just chew up the VVS in the air when the Soviets flew their own ground support missions.

As Mehring says, perhaps the air war needs some serious tweaking. Right now I am starting to question the usefulness of ground support, the main result seems to be to kill attacking planes more than anything else.

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Post #: 20
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/19/2021 8:27:59 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

...

As Mehring says, perhaps the air war needs some serious tweaking. Right now I am starting to question the usefulness of ground support, the main result seems to be to kill attacking planes more than anything else.



once you get into close/marginal battles you'll see the impact ... and if you don't do GS then you will get hit by the secondardy rule that the side with the most GS gets extra disruptions over what is hit.

Now on T1, yes, its a tool for damaging the VVS, the number of marginal ground combats is minimal

before I'd agree with Mehring on this, I'd want to see what his evidence is - I don't see any of his claims in any of the games (vs AI or HtH) that I'm involved with

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/19/2021 4:19:39 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline 		Did not ground support missions contain a subset of air superiority missions?.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/19/2021 4:20:07 PM >

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/20/2021 2:11:36 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

once you get into close/marginal battles you'll see the impact ... and if you don't do GS then you will get hit by the secondardy rule that the side with the most GS gets extra disruptions over what is hit.

Now on T1, yes, its a tool for damaging the VVS, the number of marginal ground combats is minimal

before I'd agree with Mehring on this, I'd want to see what his evidence is - I don't see any of his claims in any of the games (vs AI or HtH) that I'm involved with


Fair enough.



quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Did not ground support missions contain a subset of air superiority missions?.


More or less. The bombers are usually escorted by fighters. If the combat is in range of a fighter base (and possibly if it flies within range of one) then they will fly up to engage the attacking formation. IIRC historically there were some pretty epic air battles over some battlefields, and the early IL2s didn't have a rear gunner which meant they were defenseless if a German fighter got behind them, making fighters even more important. How the results of those battles compare to the game I couldn't say.


< Message edited by neuromancer -- 4/20/2021 2:19:15 AM >

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/21/2021 1:02:26 AM   
RG11B19D

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 4/20/2020
Status: offline 		Turn2 Aces. JG3 has quite a few pilots represented in this screenshot.

Has anyone gotten an ace with over 100 kills?






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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/22/2021 1:26:11 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I'm finding I lose more damn planes to operational losses than to the enemy! Like, a lot more!
Do the pilots not know how to fly? Do the wings just fall off? What is wrong with these planes!?

(sorry, not strictly on topic, but I felt the need to vent)

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/24/2021 7:09:30 AM   
MishaTX


Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline
quote:

I'm finding I lose more damn planes to operational losses than to the enemy! Like, a lot more!
Do the pilots not know how to fly? Do the wings just fall off? What is wrong with these planes!?


I still find it interesting how op losses almost always result in the death of the pilot.

Now, it may very well be that I don't fully understand what "operational losses" mean in this game, but in my mind it means wear and tear, landing gear failing, engines cutting out etc., but if such things, in real life, had had a mortality rate of about 99% as I see in the game, I guarantee you that nobody would have ever been able to talk me into grabbing a yoke ever

Loss of airframe/damage, sure, but almost assured pilot death?

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/24/2021 12:34:42 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

I'm finding I lose more damn planes to operational losses than to the enemy! Like, a lot more!
Do the pilots not know how to fly? Do the wings just fall off? What is wrong with these planes!?

(sorry, not strictly on topic, but I felt the need to vent)



There was a long thread on this and its because op losses are set high. Whether they are set too high vs history or not is up for debate, but its by intentional game design.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/24/2021 12:35:36 PM >

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/25/2021 5:47:10 AM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline 		MushaTX: they had parachutes in those days too, no ejection seats, but if your engine dies in flight you could certainly still hit the silk. And as long as your landing isn't a tumbling flaming wreck, you'd think you could still have a decent chance of walking away from it; plane may be done (propellers snapped off, undercarriage crushed, severe structural damage) but the pilot isn't.

Bamilus: Ah, I see. WAD - whether it is a good design or not is another matter.
Well, I've been learning ways to mitigate ops losses, but they still tend to outweigh combat losses unless I really end up mixing it up with the Soviets.
Should be one of the things they let us pick a level on, and have it automatically apply to both sides.

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RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/25/2021 6:31:47 AM   
MishaTX


Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline
quote:

MushaTX: they had parachutes in those days too, no ejection seats, but if your engine dies in flight you could certainly still hit the silk. And as long as your landing isn't a tumbling flaming wreck, you'd think you could still have a decent chance of walking away from it; plane may be done (propellers snapped off, undercarriage crushed, severe structural damage) but the pilot isn't.


Exactly what I mean. Every turn I've looked at the total air losses, Pilot KIA pretty much always correlates exactly with airframe losses, even though ops losses make up at least half of my losses.

Some pretty lethal "ops losses", if you ask me Or perhaps "ops losses" in the game doesn't mean what I'm used to it meaning.

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Post #: 29
RE: Mistake turns into a game changer for the Air War. - 4/25/2021 7:52:34 PM   
neuromancer


Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it doesn't.

I also noticed that the Soviets don't tend to take as many pilot losses; still high, but less than the near 100% the LW does.

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