Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level

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Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 3:15:58 PM

actrade

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First...great game and I love the flexibility that SU's provide. However, I'm still a bit lost on getting the right settings set. I have my PzG corps all set at 4 for support levels, have the rest of my corps at 3 and have all higher commands at zero, with nothing locked. I don't want anything other than non-combat SU's in my higher commands because I don't want to take the CPP hit when moving them back down.

The AI did move some SUs into my corps, but certainly not always at the asked for level (in fact, some corps don't have any SUs) and some have 2 or 3 vs. 3 or 4 requested. I understand that they're might not be enough to go around, but the fact is that OKH has still has a huge amount of SUs directly attached (mostly Flak and Arty units) even through support level is set to zero. I would think that every unit would have the requested amount and OKH would just have the left overs? With OKH set at zero, I assume even then the SUs in excess of those requested at the corps level would flow back to OKH rather than simply vanish or go into the reserves? Can someone please explain how all this works? Thanks!

< Message edited by actrade -- 4/21/2021 3:17:58 PM >

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 3:45:57 PM

actrade

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For a simple test, start the GC as Germans. Set all corps supply level at 9, zero for all higher commands. Run turn 1 without moving anything. Upon the beginning of turn 2, some of my corps made an attempt to add 9 of everything, others have zero. I also checked to see if level of attachment (corps to army for example vs. corps to group) made any difference it did not. In fact, some corps directly subordinate to the same higher HQ had a full complement of SU, while another corp in the same command had zero? I thought maybe supply priority might have something do with it but it doesn't either. Being AI, there has to be some logic behind SU assignments, but I'll be darned if I know what it is lol.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 4:28:07 PM

loki100

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well if you set them all to 9 you are basically telling the allocation system to randomise their assignment.

for the sake of argument, you start with 50 corps and 150 SU? You've just told it to assign 450. So I presume it gives 9 to the first one on its list and so on till its run out.

So the support level is completely independent of any supply level set by the HQ.

If you want none higher up the chain you are absolutely correct to set the Army+ HQs to 0.

now you need to prioritise the corps. Try something like Pzr Corps = 5, Inf Corps in Pzr Grp = 4, other infantry =3. You can refine with practice, as you get an idea which corps are likely to be more important. Make each non-German corps =4.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 4:41:44 PM

actrade

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Tried that already. Just did another test. Set all Support Level at zero for everybody except L Corps, which starts the game with no SU. I set it at 9 for them. Result: still no SU for them, nearly all other corps have Pioneer battalions only, OKH has all of the arty/AAA SU. So apparently pioneer battalions operate outside of the SU rules, which is ok if true, but I still can't understand why some units will not get SU from the AI even in an extreme example like this one.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 4:49:29 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

Tried that already. Just did another test. Set all Support Level at zero for everybody except L Corps, which starts the game with no SU. I set it at 9 for them. Result: still no SU for them, nearly all other corps have Pioneer battalions only, OKH has all of the arty/AAA SU. So apparently pioneer battalions operate outside of the SU rules, which is ok if true, but I still can't understand why some units will not get SU from the AI even in an extreme example like this one.

Did you wait a turn? And yes, engineer and construction units do operate outside of those rules. There's a table in the manual page 247 which describes this. And to my knowledge there's no way to adjust this, other than keeping a unit at -1 (LOCKED) support level and manually controlling the construction/engineer it gets. Otherwise the game will try and get each HQ to the construction/engineer levels mentioned in the table, regardless of their support unit level.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/21/2021 4:50:54 PM >

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 4:57:22 PM

actrade

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I knew about construction but no engineers so thanks. And yes, I waited a turn.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 4:59:53 PM

Joel Billings

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If you have set up a situation where you think it looks clearly wrong, please open a thread in the tech support area and attach a save. Ideally we'd like the pre-log enemy save just before your logistics phase, so we can run the logistics phase and see why things aren't moving. Thanks.

In 21.5.6 you can see that engineer units are always moving automatically. Can someone confirm that locking HQs prevents the automatic movement of engineer and construction units? I see that's what the manual says, but not sure if this is the case.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 5:08:38 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

If you have set up a situation where you think it looks clearly wrong, please open a thread in the tech support area and attach a save. Ideally we'd like the pre-log enemy save just before your logistics phase, so we can run the logistics phase and see why things aren't moving. Thanks.

In 21.5.6 you can see that engineer units are always moving automatically. Can someone confirm that locking HQs prevents the automatic movement of engineer and construction units? I see that's what the manual says, but not sure if this is the case.

I can confirm it does. I play with locked and nothing moves unless I do so manually.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 5:08:47 PM

actrade

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Regarding L Corps, I think this is a bug as it happens every single time, repeatable in every instance. I guess what I was hoping for was an explanation behind the AI logic. Exactly how does it decide to parcel out SUs all things being equal? Alphabetically? Numerically? Pure chance?

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 5:10:44 PM

Bamilus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

Regarding L Corps, I think this is a bug as it happens every single time, repeatable in every instance. I guess what I was hoping for was an explanation behind the AI logic. Exactly how does it decide to parcel out SUs all things being equal? Alphabetically? Numerically? Pure chance?

The manual describes the logic behind the automatic movement of SU's on page 246, but if you're finding it not matching that as described in manual then I would post as a bug thread. If it's a bug then there's no explanation that will satisfy what you're looking for, since it's operating contrary to manual.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/21/2021 5:11:11 PM >

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 5:21:36 PM

Joel Billings

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Gary's the only person that could answer the specifics of what unit gets support units first, etc., and he'd have to study the code to know. Often he just does down the unit list from top to bottom, sometimes he alternates each turn top down/bottom up. I'd guess he's doing it with the HQs with the larger support numbers first, but I'm just guessing. If we get a bug report with a save (like for the case of unit set high and all others at 0 not getting anything), then Gary will be able to take a look and see what's going wrong and possibly even be able to give us some info on how it's ordering the activity.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 7:29:58 PM

carlkay58

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actrade - you made an HQ with 0 SUs to a level 9. All the other HQs you set to 0. The next logistics phase will see all of the SUs sent up the line to the OKW/OKH. None was reassigned to L Corps HQ because they have all been reassigned already this turn. The next logistics phase will then see L Corps HQ fill up with SUs as they are now available for reassignment. This is how it SHOULD work. If not then please report (with saves included) in the Tech Support section.

Also note that the Support Level of the HQ is the number of SUs of EACH type. So L Corps HQ should have 9 artillery, 9 anti-tank, 9 anti-air, etc.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 8:51:06 PM

actrade

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Will do. Yes, I realize it doesn't happen until the next logistics phase. The bug is easily repeatable as I've probably started 10 different 1941 campaign games and it's in every single one.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 10:26:25 PM

Joel Billings

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I just ran a test in RtL scenario. All HQs set to 0 and one corps at 9. All non-construction SU's when to OKH and stayed there. I then set AGN and 18th Army to support level 2 and one corps in 18th army to 9. That broke the floodgates and the corps got 33 support units. I seem to recall something like this from WitE1 days. You need to have the higher HQs (other than OKH) be set to at least 1 in order for the support units to be able to move around through the system. If everyone is set to 0, OKH will get the units even when it is set to 0. But the other units will not draw support units through the system if set to 0, preventing the lowest HQs from getting anything. Try that out and see if things work better.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 4/22/2021 12:12:10 AM >

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/21/2021 11:05:32 PM

actrade

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I will give that a try. Thanks Joel!

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/22/2021 12:31:46 AM

actrade

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Worked like a charm! Nothing in OKH now and just minimal in AG and armies. Corps now full of SUs.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/22/2021 3:03:19 AM

bairdlander2

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I set OKH to 9 and every other unit to 0,I micromanaged and assigned SU's to where I wanted,now next turn they all went back to OKH.How do I prevent that from happening again?

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/22/2021 3:17:34 AM

Cad908

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

I set OKH to 9 and every other unit to 0,I micromanaged and assigned SU's to where I wanted,now next turn they all went back to OKH.How do I prevent that from happening again?

You will need to lock the down stream HQs from OKH. This can be done globally by using the Commanders Report and setting the Army Group, Army and Corps HQs to -1, which is locked. You can then move the SU's manually to each HQ and they should stick.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/23/2021 3:57:49 AM

bairdlander2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cad908

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

I set OKH to 9 and every other unit to 0,I micromanaged and assigned SU's to where I wanted,now next turn they all went back to OKH.How do I prevent that from happening again?

You will need to lock the down stream HQs from OKH. This can be done globally by using the Commanders Report and setting the Army Group, Army and Corps HQs to -1, which is locked. You can then move the SU's manually to each HQ and they should stick.

Thanks,so lock all except OKH,leave that at 9?

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/23/2021 11:57:35 PM

Cad908

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

Thanks,so lock all except OKH,leave that at 9?

Yes, I leave Supreme HQ at 9.

I suppose you could lock the Supreme HQ, but I play USSR and when reinforcement HQ's arrive they tend to have support level set at 3. If I forget to reset them to Locked when they arrive, a bunch of SUs get pulled to them during that ground phase. A fair percentage of the time I forget to set the reinforcing HQ to locked, so rather than have to move them individually during the next ground phase, I will set the new HQ's to 0 and let the system pull them back to Stavka. The following turn, the SU's are gone and I lock the HQ.

Also, I do not know what Locking the Supreme HQ will do to the automatic assignment routines for construction units to build / repair airfields, depots, factories, ect.

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RE: Still Don't Understand Logic On Support Level - 4/24/2021 10:58:16 AM

actrade

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cad908

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

Thanks,so lock all except OKH,leave that at 9?

Yes, I leave Supreme HQ at 9.

I suppose you could lock the Supreme HQ, but I play USSR and when reinforcement HQ's arrive they tend to have support level set at 3. If I forget to reset them to Locked when they arrive, a bunch of SUs get pulled to them during that ground phase. A fair percentage of the time I forget to set the reinforcing HQ to locked, so rather than have to move them individually during the next ground phase, I will set the new HQ's to 0 and let the system pull them back to Stavka. The following turn, the SU's are gone and I lock the HQ.

Also, I do not know what Locking the Supreme HQ will do to the automatic assignment routines for construction units to build / repair airfields, depots, factories, ect.