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High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing

 
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High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 6:13:22 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		What do you guys think of this current mechanic? I like the idea of it, however I'm wondering if the HWM for axis sudden death loss is set too high for 1941 and 1942. 525 by October and 575 in 1942 seem a little bit much for a sudden death loss, and let me explain why:

1. Axis player has to juggle theatres of which in the first few turns there isn't much you can do about this due to transfer times so this will bite into your VPs a bit (say 5 to 10 before you can get this under control) I think there should be a pause here at first on losing VPs or theatres being understaffed have a different kind of penalty

2. The "high water mark" mechanic means you MUST press on as fast as you can in '41 otherwise if you backslide you either lose initiative or your won't be able to increase the HWM. This has a feedback loop type of thing where you will take higher losses to increase the HWM before the timer runs out which will make future HWM attainments harder...increases your losses more in order to achieve it

3. There is some back and forth fighting in '41 and '42 at times where the Soviet player may retake a city you took but you clearly will take it, but with the current mechanic this means you will lose a few points as it registers as the Soviet getting a bonus when they do not really have the initiative

At 525 in 1941 say you do not take Leningrad, Moscow or Sevastopol (which didn't happen in real life or didn't happen at all) You basically have to take all the 10 VP cities all the way to Rostov and up to stay in the game, and then for 575 you're forced into the 1942 offensive slog for one of these major cities. It seems like maybe 1941 VP HWM should be around 500ish and 1942 around 530 - 550ish in my opinion.

I know the game is brand new and this will take some time but right now it seems very harsh on Axis player.
Post #: 1
RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 6:17:40 PM   
squatter

 

Posts: 1033
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		Could there not be a pop up when any of the sudden death moments arrive, and if either player chooses to accept the victory/defeat then the game is over.

If both players agree not to accept the game end, then it continues?

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)
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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 6:19:41 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		A few thoughts based on experience during the long pre-release testing period:

1. As Axis players become more familiar and experienced with the system, I don't think these levels will be particularly hard to reach.
2. It's a feature, not a bug, that the new VP system encourages the Axis player to push hard and the Soviet player to defend more aggressively.
3. For those players who want more of a sandbox game, we're planning to release a version of the campaign without the sudden victory/defeat threshholds. However, I strongly encourage you not to just hop on over to that before mastering the original system, which I think does make for a better campaign.
4. For those that are not paying enough attention to the Turn Summary, we're also planning to highlight even more an impending sudden victory/defeat.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/21/2021 6:20:21 PM >

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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 6:23:50 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Just curious if you are considering the bonuses for early capture of cities. Otherwise, this idea that it's very harsh on the Axis player is really an exaggeration. Getting over 550VP in 1941 should not pose a major challenge once you have some experience under your belt.

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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 6:37:17 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

What do you guys think of this current mechanic? I like the idea of it, however I'm wondering if the HWM for axis sudden death loss is set too high for 1941 and 1942. 525 by October and 575 in 1942 seem a little bit much for a sudden death loss, and let me explain why:

...

2. The "high water mark" mechanic means you MUST press on as fast as you can in '41 otherwise if you backslide you either lose initiative or your won't be able to increase the HWM. This has a feedback loop type of thing where you will take higher losses to increase the HWM before the timer runs out which will make future HWM attainments harder...increases your losses more in order to achieve it

....
At 525 in 1941 say you do not take Leningrad, Moscow or Sevastopol (which didn't happen in real life or didn't happen at all) You basically have to take all the 10 VP cities all the way to Rostov and up to stay in the game, and then for 575 you're forced into the 1942 offensive slog for one of these major cities. It seems like maybe 1941 VP HWM should be around 500ish and 1942 around 530 - 550ish in my opinion.

I know the game is brand new and this will take some time but right now it seems very harsh on Axis player.


really don't agree, this the chart for T11 of a fairly balanced HtH game, I know WiTE2 better than my opponent but badly out of practice with the axis:



Kursk/Kharkov/Stalino will all fall in the next 3-5 turns, probably Orel, maybe Tula. So I am way over the HWM, even without 3 historical captures. TB are locked so we both lost minimal VP in the early turns as it all settled down.


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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 7:44:16 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		It is extremely rare in the game for the Theater Box gains/losses to really matter in the 41 context. The initial turns WILL see both players get penalized/awarded until the TOE in the Theater Boxes evens out. There really is no reason to limit these events in 41. Over the course of a full campaign with Theater Box control turned off the VPs will pretty much equal out.

In Loki's example above you can see that the difference is 3 VPs. That is less than one third of a typical VP city and the bonus VPs will more than offset it. Every city that was not originally captured (such as Leningrad, Moscow, etc.) will have 6 bonus VPs awarded. If you capture Sevastopol in 41 you get 6 Bonus VPs. This totals up fast. Even when you look at turn 1 - capturing Minsk, Lvov, and Riga on turn 1 gives you 41 VPs - 11 of which are Bonus VPs. So an additional VP city taken.

The Axis player has to stretch to take the VPs in 41. That is a design feature. If you hit the bad weather and you don't have enough VPs to make it through the Sudden Loss threshold then you have to get moving during the freeze to do so. This will result in you getting spread thin both manpower and logistically. The Soviet player then has the opportunity to take back enough to lower your VP total and win the game. The current levels are what they are based on what we have seen as results in testing. They could easily be changed if needed when more games are played and reported on now that the game is released. This is coming from a playtester who has lost in 41 as both the Axis and Soviet sides. I have also won against the AI on both sides in 41.

(in reply to loki100)
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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 8:38:12 PM   
NotOneStepBack


Posts: 915
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline 		Alright, guess I just suck

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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/21/2021 8:46:37 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Alright, guess I just suck


probably more a case of learning the game?

the view from the beta games is if the match is reasonably even its not unbalanced - given the underlying intent.

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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 1:10:24 AM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		Odessa, Kiev and Sevastopol are low hanging fruit where you should pick up bonuses easily. Treat Sevastopol as a priority target, Kharkov, Stalino and Rostov are not going anywhere and you can't destroy factories anymore, so concentrate on Sevastopol first.

The time pressure is the point. The political realities and beliefs that just one more offensive will make everything crash down is what gave the 41 campaign it's dynamic. If there had been the belief that war will go into a second campaign season in 1942 (prevailing belief until Kiev), many things would have been different.

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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 2:25:26 AM   
NotOneStepBack


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Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Alright, guess I just suck


probably more a case of learning the game?

the view from the beta games is if the match is reasonably even its not unbalanced - given the underlying intent.


It is partially the learning curve, I am kidding.

(in reply to loki100)
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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 4:03:33 AM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline 		Of note, the 525 mark actually procs on T29, the first week of ‘42, not T16 in October. The latter is the first chance for a German Auto-Win. That gives you one last big lunge to make up any points you might need (Taifun!).

With that in mind, I think you’ll see the 525 as much easier. It’s not 525 by mud, it’s 525 by ‘42. To get there you’ll need 155 points since you start with 370. of which:

Riga, Minsk, Lvov will all fall T1 for 41 points. 104 to go.

For 100% no question points, the Kiev and Odessa you’ll probably max out for 32, and Talinn you’ll get on time for 13. Smolensk and Pskov are more variable for let’s say 22. Only 39 points to pick up.

D-town, Zapo, Kursk, Kharkov, Rostov, Stalino, Orel, Rzhev, and Kalinin are nine historical target cities, any three of which on time will take you over the line. If you start picking up places like Sevastopol, Tula, and Leningrad then every AG theater also has potential to cover basically the complete failure of any other theater. It’s not impossible to get below 525, but to do it means having been completely stopped across the entire Russian front...it’s a deserved loss at that point.


< Message edited by GloriousRuse -- 4/22/2021 4:05:29 AM >

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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 12:05:07 PM   
Harain1

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 5/3/2014
Status: offline 		My main issue with this system is that the Axis AI doesn't really have a chance.

Playing As SU with Axis with 110 morale, it was a real struggle not to auto-win on Jan 1st 1942. I started pulling back in early September when I noticed the AI was really behind on VPs. Only managed to make them catch the last VP needed on the last turn of December, after having to reload it and give the AI 200 on all difficulty settings for that turn. This is no way to play a game imo.

If playing against the AI, I feel 1 of the following changes should be made:
- make AI totally ignore victory conditions
- lower the sudden loss VP requirements
- give a player the option to continue playing after winning (my personal preference)

(in reply to GloriousRuse)
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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 12:10:46 PM   
Slush

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Danmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harain1

My main issue with this system is that the Axis AI doesn't really have a chance.

Playing As SU with Axis with 110 morale, it was a real struggle not to auto-win on Jan 1st 1942. I started pulling back in early September when I noticed the AI was really behind on VPs. Only managed to make them catch the last VP needed on the last turn of December, after having to reload it and give the AI 200 on all difficulty settings for that turn. This is no way to play a game imo.

If playing against the AI, I feel 1 of the following changes should be made:
- make AI totally ignore victory conditions
- lower the sudden loss VP requirements
- give a player the option to continue playing after winning (my personal preference)


I'm 87.8 percent sure that is says in the manual that the sudden death rule does not apply when playing against the Axis AI. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(in reply to Harain1)
Post #: 13
RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 12:13:43 PM   
Harain1

 

Posts: 71
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slush
I'm 87.8 percent sure that is says in the manual that the sudden death rule does not apply when playing against the Axis AI. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Just checked the manual and yea, you're right. Thanks

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Post #: 14
RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 1:07:12 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harain1
My main issue with this system is that the Axis AI doesn't really have a chance.

Playing As SU with Axis with 110 morale, it was a real struggle not to auto-win on Jan 1st 1942. I started pulling back in early September when I noticed the AI was really behind on VPs. Only managed to make them catch the last VP needed on the last turn of December, after having to reload it and give the AI 200 on all difficulty settings for that turn. This is no way to play a game imo.


Just a suggestion but I'd recommend putting the Axis AI on full "Challenging", not just the 110 morale, if you have any experience playing the Soviets. As also noted, you don't need to worry about the AI missing the victory threshholds.


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/22/2021 1:17:35 PM   
Slush

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Danmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harain1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Slush
I'm 87.8 percent sure that is says in the manual that the sudden death rule does not apply when playing against the Axis AI. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Just checked the manual and yea, you're right. Thanks


Cheers, I was worried about my current '41 Soviet campaign as well. It's not much fun if you don't get to roll into Berlin.

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Post #: 16
RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/24/2021 6:50:15 AM   
MishaTX


Posts: 79
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline 		Personally, while I certainly have nothing against a "sandbox" mode, I like to be able to fight all of my games to the bitter end no matter what, I really rather like the pressure of the "sudden death" conditions. It makes me feel like I have Adolf breathing down my back forcing me to commit to the offensive even when it's strategically unsound and, furthermore, it keeps me from "cheesing" it by saying, by the time bad weather kicks in, "OK, I'm in a good position for '42, I'll just take it easy from now on to stop the Soviets dead during the winter.

But again: A "sandbox" where you can play as you like and try out different approaches without a sudden game over forced upon you would be most welcome, just for the Alt History guy inside me.

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Post #: 17
RE: High Water Mark for Axis seems punishing - 4/24/2021 12:30:20 PM   
Bamilus


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From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		The current victory condition approach is common in many Eastern Front board games (in terms of sudden death cobditions), and its used to simulate the political realities (Hitler wouldn't accept troops stopping at Smolensk and go no further in 1941) and also to encourage players to behave more historically, which helps with game balancing and also provides realism. A sandbox mode would be cool to test things, but I fear new players would use it from day 1 versus playing how the game was intended.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/24/2021 12:32:05 PM >

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