Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

According to https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Ger-1st-Wave-Inf-Divs.pdf, the WiTE2 German 41 1st Wave TOE appears to be missing 74 Motorcycle Squads.

At 1st glance, there is a Motorcycle Squad (Ger 5/40) ground element that may be used for this.

But short-changing all German 1st Wave Infantry Divisions 74 squads is not trivial.

quote:

German 41 1st Wave TOE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Those motorcycle squads are support elements and are not represented by combat motorcycle squads. Most of what you are seeing in this chart are couriers or some other non-combat related support function. Motorcycle squads will only show up in WitE 2 OBs if they are active combat maneuver elements in reconnaissance and motorcycle infantry platoons and companies. The ones one this chart are represented by support squads.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Those motorcycle squads are support elements and are not represented by combat motorcycle squads. Most of what you are seeing in this chart are couriers or some other non-combat related support function. Motorcycle squads will only show up in WitE 2 OBs if they are active combat maneuver elements in reconnaissance and motorcycle infantry platoons and companies. The ones one this chart are represented by support squads.

Trey

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-2.html
Figure 7.--Infantry Division, Old Type

So most of the above are support, but the combat troops are combat elements?.


Section VI. COMBAT TROOPS (FECHTENDE TRUPPEN),

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Sorry but I'm not understanding your question.

The design intent here is that only elements that would reasonably engage in combat are represented in the OBs. Motorcycle Squads belonging to regimental recon platoons and Motorcycle Companies in the reconnaissance battalions or motorcycle divisional battalions would be represented as combat elements. All other elements such as self-defense LMGs and "light rifle squads" that make up the various support elements such as signal elements, logistical elements are amalgamated into Support Squads even though technically these elements were armed with light weapons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Sorry but I'm not understanding your question.

The design intent here is that only elements that would reasonably engage in combat are represented in the OBs. Motorcycle Squads belonging to regimental recon platoons and Motorcycle Companies in the reconnaissance battalions or motorcycle divisional battalions would be represented as combat elements. All other elements such as self-defense LMGs and "light rifle squads" that make up the various support elements such as signal elements, logistical elements are amalgamated into Support Squads even though technically these elements were armed with light weapons.

The Germans assigned 20 MC to each Inf Reg as combat elements in sec VI, they also assign MC to Recon Bttn etc in figure 7, you indicated that those deemed to be combat elements ought to be in game and the rest as support elements, i was asking if you were following how the manual terms combat troops, since in one figure itsa 40 odd number value, but only half that classed as combat troops in the next section.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

Interesting that these elements are included in Nigel Askey's total combat strength calculations and were not discarded.

74 squads? I will have to lookup what his combat stats were for these units as compared to a regular rifle squad to get a better feel for how their absence would be felt. But, at the least, they would have a defensive presence and be there to potentially absorb losses.

I honestly find his published work more credible and worthy of historical reference.

The reason why this is so important for the Germans in this simulation is that the German TOE plays a much more significant factor for the overall military power because they cannot create units out of their butt like their Soviet counterparts.

So, if there are any inaccuracies of Soviet TOEs presents, no big deal because Soviets create more units latter to absorb these unaccounted for elements... Whereas the Germans do not have that luxury.

As a result, the German TOEs stand as a far more limiting factor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Was just looking at this KSTN from Nov 1941 and it does show that the Regimental Recon Platoon could be equipped as a combat motorcycle unit. Having looked at the Gliederungs and KSTNs of multiple infantry divisions throughout the war, the regimental recon platoon could be either a mounted cavalry platoon, a bicycle mounted recon platoon or possibly a motorcycle recon platoon. The reality is that these platoons were equipped with whatever and there was no standardization in how they were equipped. The Germans were very loose about they actually filled their authorizations. Currently, the Infantry Regimental Recon Platoons are represented at the start of Barbarossa by either a cavalry or bicycle mounted recon platoon. I will have to see if I can find any more information on how prevalent these platoons were equipped with motorcycles. I don't think they were very common.

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1291nov41.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Okay. I see that but just having 20 assigned motorcycles does not mean that the infantry regiment organized them as fighting squads. Those motorcycles could be used in just a courier capacity which is my assumption since each Infantry Regiment had an assigned Reconnaissance Platoon which was typically either a cavalry or bicycle infantry platoon (ie not a motorcycle combat unit). Now, I could be wrong and if you have the KSTNs (or other references) that show these were organized as some kind of reconnaissance or combat troop, then I would definitely take a look at that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

Interesting that these elements are included in Nigel Askey's total combat strength calculations and were not discarded.

74 squads? I will have to lookup what his combat stats were for these units as compared to a regular rifle squad to get a better feel for how their absence would be felt. But, at the least, they would have a defensive presence and be there to potentially absorb losses.

I honestly find his published work more credible and worthy of historical reference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

Interesting that these elements are included in Nigel Askey's total combat strength calculations and were not discarded.

74 squads? I will have to lookup what his combat stats were for these units as compared to a regular rifle squad to get a better feel for how their absence would be felt. But, at the least, they would have a defensive presence and be there to potentially absorb losses.

I honestly find his published work more credible and worthy of historical reference.

Unless a Kradschützen platoon/company shows up specifically as such in a KSTN the various motorcycles would not have been used as concentrated fighting squads. There is no reason to do so, as their intended function of courier/traffic management would be much more valuable than moving a few guys around on the battlefield.

If you are just counting rifles that is something different, but that is like counting the members of a battalion staff or the baking company as infantry. Happened often by necessity but not their intended function if it could be avoided.

The Kradschützen battalions were part of Infantry divisions in the mid 30's before they started getting assigned to the newly forming Motorized Infantry and Panzer Divisions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

FYI - at the opening of Barbarossa, the game lists 1,394 Motorcycle Squads deployed in German units across the Eastern Front.

However, according to Operation Barbarossa [long name] book, Table Total Ger Deployed D-1, pg 74, there were actually 21,046 Motorcycle Squads deployed.

(note - I would copy the table but afraid I would violate some copyright or something....)

OMG!

Noway short changing the German TOEs some 20k squads is trivial or not bound to have an impact.

at even 8-10 men per squad, (lets say 9), that is about 180,000 men.... or about 10 full strength divisions!

The Germans hardly build crap as far as new units through the end of '41. see https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ger-mob-June-Dec-41.pdf

So missing out on the Motorcycle Squads at the onset is a big deal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DorianGray

FYI - at the opening of Barbarossa, the game lists 1,394 Motorcycle Squads deployed in German units across the Eastern Front.

However, according to Operation Barbarossa [long name] book, Table Total Ger Deployed D-1, pg 74, there were actually 21,046 Motorcycle Squads deployed.

(note - I would copy the table but afraid I would violate some copyright or something....)

OMG!

Noway short changing the German TOEs some 20k squads is trivial or not bound to have an impact.

at even 8-10 men per squad, (lets say 9), that is about 180,000 men.... or about 10 full strength divisions!

The Germans hardly build crap as far as new units through the end of '41. see https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Ger-mob-June-Dec-41.pdf

So missing out on the Motorcycle Squads at the onset is a big deal.