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Stumbled on too John Tiller

 
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Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/25/2021 1:00:59 PM   
Parkkicks

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 3/28/2021
Status: offline 		I'm a "new" war-gamer, compared to some of you vets, although I have been playing PC games my whole life, (since 1996) being born in 1992... my formative years were of Putt-Putt, Jump start second grade, and spyfox (nostalgia trip) But during and after high-school as I've been refining my pallet, my first real pc gaming experiences came in the form of Counterstrike:source, and team fortress 2.(I had a Nintendo 64 and Playstation 2 that I enjoyed as well.) I found as I began expanding into various genres that I preferred strategy and sandbox games over story-driven linear games. I'm finding it interesting now, that these old timers, have been hiding out playing games of such detail in their garage! AND THAT NOW THE ONLY THING THAT CAN SATISFY MY DEMANDS FOR REALISM ARE FULLY MODDED HOI4,(barely) AND MY RECENT DISCOVERY OF GARY GRIGSBY GAMES!!!!

And now your telling me that there is a second treasure trove of games in the John Tiller realm?

I think I've died and gone to heaven.

Anybody care to expand on how much effing time I have In between turns of WITE2 to play Panzer campaigns or a Squad campaign selection? I'm sure that they are worth their weight, and deserve to be played, but this... It's nearly unfathomable! It's like having to pick out a coffin! AND THEN GETTING A SECOND ONE FOR MY BROTHER! AND NOW WERE ARGUING ABOUT WHICH ONE OF US IS GOING TO GO FIRST, WHEN CLEARLY WE'RE GOING TO DO EACH OTHER IN, AND NOT EVEN HAVE TIME TO EVEN GET TO THE COFFIN STORE!!!!


I'll calm down now, and simply ask anybody reading this to enlighten me and and anybody else, on how you vets manage to exist in a world where these games exist simultaneously.

Thank you.
Post #: 1
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/25/2021 1:26:37 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		Tiller games are good but worst AI Ive ever seen in any game (any genre of video game). pbem is good, though

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(in reply to Parkkicks)
Post #: 2
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/25/2021 1:38:54 PM   
Parkkicks

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 3/28/2021
Status: offline 		Can I play myself?

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 3
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/25/2021 1:57:58 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Parkkicks

Can I play myself?


yes, just set up for hot seat.

The AI is sort of ok in the Pzr Campaign scenarios if it is on the defensive, you can then treat attacking as a puzzle to solve (& its quite good fun) but don't expect to face anything but a brute force response.

Its also usually not too bad in the 1-3 day scenarios, much longer and you will gain an escalating advantage.

I'm dipping in and out of a Normandy 44 grand campaign. I'm up to D7 and the first five days was a challenge and interesting, but it has clearly lost the plot so its a case of move up to a front line, set up the attack, rotate formations (which it doesn't do) till I can take the objective and then move on.

_____________________________


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Post #: 4
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/25/2021 2:40:05 PM   
jacktimes2


Posts: 153
Joined: 7/11/2015
From: NY
Status: offline 		FYI, in case you’re into the North African Theater at all. Panzer Battles, also from Tiller, has a much more appropriate and fun scale than Panzer Campaigns (for that Theater).

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 5
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/25/2021 8:56:55 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I find that the time per turn of Panzer Campaigns (i.e. 2 hours per turn) is just too short. Soviet regiments basically move one hex per turn. Yuck. I think the scale of the game is in between a nice operational level and a nice tactical level and so falls between the cracks. I do love looking at the maps and the OOB though.

(in reply to jacktimes2)
Post #: 6
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/26/2021 1:09:59 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Tiller games are good but worst AI Ive ever seen in any game (any genre of video game). pbem is good, though


Worst? I guess you never played WitP:AE.

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 7
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/26/2021 1:19:56 AM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Tiller games are good but worst AI Ive ever seen in any game (any genre of video game). pbem is good, though


Worst? I guess you never played WitP:AE.


I bought it when it came out and have played it. The AI in that is far superior by the simple fact that it at least follows scripts. John Tiller AI doesn't have scripts and is just terrible brute-force logic. You'll routinely see AI troops just moving away from the battles and in random directions from turn 1 in those games. I remember in PZ Market Garden 44 the AI Axis (on defense, so should be easier for AI) would just move troops away from the cities and towards the edge of the map for no reason. It's also quite poor at tactical things, too, but again there's some small and dense scenarios where it's basic logic can work ok, but any map of decent size and/or that requires maneuvering the AI is absolutely horrendous.

I take it you haven't played any John Tiller games.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/26/2021 1:22:48 AM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/26/2021 2:36:29 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Parkkicks
Can I play myself?

Yes, I've done this several times, at least when playing the grand campaigns. The maps are large enough, and there are enough units, where it is actually difficult to remember (at least for me anyway!) all the details of the other side that you're playing.

I enjoy the JT games, but I stick to the summer ones...as someone else mentioned, in winter scenarios many Soviet units can move all of one hex per turn--it gets a bit tedious moving thousands of unit counters over the muddy/snowy steppe.

Another issue with the East Front JT games that I've played is that most of them feature one side or another being heavily fortified when the game stars. Realistic enough, I suppose, but it means that the first 20-25 turns of a campaign often involve grinding through the fortifications, which is difficult and to me, kind of tedious.

My favorite East Front JT game is therefore Smolensk '41--set in the summer, with basically meeting engagements, so it is quite mobile and fun.

(in reply to Parkkicks)
Post #: 9
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/26/2021 4:23:35 PM   
Gerry58

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 12/11/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Parkkicks
Can I play myself?

Yes, I've done this several times, at least when playing the grand campaigns. The maps are large enough, and there are enough units, where it is actually difficult to remember (at least for me anyway!) all the details of the other side that you're playing.

I enjoy the JT games, but I stick to the summer ones...as someone else mentioned, in winter scenarios many Soviet units can move all of one hex per turn--it gets a bit tedious moving thousands of unit counters over the muddy/snowy steppe.

Another issue with the East Front JT games that I've played is that most of them feature one side or another being heavily fortified when the game stars. Realistic enough, I suppose, but it means that the first 20-25 turns of a campaign often involve grinding through the fortifications, which is difficult and to me, kind of tedious.

My favorite East Front JT game is therefore Smolensk '41--set in the summer, with basically meeting engagements, so it is quite mobile and fun.



Agree but the AI is still idiotic

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 10
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/26/2021 4:33:56 PM   
ranknfile

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 2/9/2021
From: New Orleans
Status: offline 		For solo play, a good AI is a must. There are games I would love to play against an opponent, but tired of playing solo, as the AI did not give an interesting enough challenge. I like John Tiller's games (Midway is an excellent, if not popular game; worth a look for those who like WW2 naval warfare). I have far more time playing Tiller's games than I do Gary Grigsby's games, but I like them both. Currently I am playing WitE2 exclusively, and am very, very pleased with it.

< Message edited by ranknfile -- 4/26/2021 4:34:41 PM >

(in reply to Gerry58)
Post #: 11
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/29/2021 12:08:37 AM   
Sigwolfe


Posts: 26
Joined: 11/15/2019
Status: offline 		As a very sad footnote to this thread... John Tiller passed away the day after the original post. A big loss for the wargaming community.

https://georgiacremation.com/obituary/john-albert-tiller/?fbclid=IwAR22b7DDyAE70KCfkGRjiVHd2luRatzXd4qX6GRIqNWlW_r-zEjd22l0Elg

(in reply to ranknfile)
Post #: 12
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/29/2021 12:33:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I'm really sorry to hear this sad news. I spent many hours enjoying Panzer Campaigns Smolensk back around 2000. It was one of the games that inspired us to make War in the East.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Sigwolfe)
Post #: 13
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/29/2021 3:22:37 AM   
dox44

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: the woodlands, texas
Status: offline 		Sad news. Playtested SB 3 & SB 4 and helped on patches for 1 & 2. I had played his games and EF was one my favorite games of all time. Second day or so he emailed me and wanted my opinion on one of the scenarios planned for P&F (?). I was out of my league. I had never talked with him and thought everything would be run through WBill. I was somewhat surprised and nervous. He was very helpful. Kept us informed and wanted input from everybody. Something I'll never forget. Somewhere I still have the CDs he would send out with updated game files...well if the hurricane didn't get them.

i'm waiting for the 3rd hammer. i just lost my brother in law yesterday...

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 14
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/29/2021 4:08:10 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Parkkicks

I'm a "new" war-gamer, compared to some of you vets, although I have been playing PC games my whole life, (since 1996) being born in 1992... my formative years were of Putt-Putt, Jump start second grade, and spyfox (nostalgia trip) But during and after high-school as I've been refining my pallet, my first real pc gaming experiences came in the form of Counterstrike:source, and team fortress 2.(I had a Nintendo 64 and Playstation 2 that I enjoyed as well.) I found as I began expanding into various genres that I preferred strategy and sandbox games over story-driven linear games. I'm finding it interesting now, that these old timers, have been hiding out playing games of such detail in their garage! AND THAT NOW THE ONLY THING THAT CAN SATISFY MY DEMANDS FOR REALISM ARE FULLY MODDED HOI4,(barely) AND MY RECENT DISCOVERY OF GARY GRIGSBY GAMES!!!!

And now your telling me that there is a second treasure trove of games in the John Tiller realm?

I think I've died and gone to heaven.

Anybody care to expand on how much effing time I have In between turns of WITE2 to play Panzer campaigns or a Squad campaign selection? I'm sure that they are worth their weight, and deserve to be played, but this... It's nearly unfathomable! It's like having to pick out a coffin! AND THEN GETTING A SECOND ONE FOR MY BROTHER! AND NOW WERE ARGUING ABOUT WHICH ONE OF US IS GOING TO GO FIRST, WHEN CLEARLY WE'RE GOING TO DO EACH OTHER IN, AND NOT EVEN HAVE TIME TO EVEN GET TO THE COFFIN STORE!!!!


I'll calm down now, and simply ask anybody reading this to enlighten me and and anybody else, on how you vets manage to exist in a world where these games exist simultaneously.

Thank you.



I say join the Blitz forum and the Squad Battles section. Get Squad Battles games and PBEM with the great bunch of lads over there.

_____________________________

My website


https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to Parkkicks)
Post #: 15
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/29/2021 8:19:28 AM   
jsqdcsq


Posts: 30
Joined: 4/19/2017
Status: offline 		Time is always the most valuable thing. I would say find a balance among so many good games. At least you should give each one a try.

_____________________________

Proletariat of the world, unite!

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 16
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/29/2021 5:11:38 PM   
malyhin1517


Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I'm really sorry to hear this sad news. I spent many hours enjoying Panzer Campaigns Smolensk back around 2000. It was one of the games that inspired us to make War in the East.

I also loved playing his Panzer Campaigns, especially Smolensk-41! True, later I found out about WITE and after that I almost never played his games!

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 17
RE: Stumbled on too John Tiller - 4/30/2021 5:45:36 PM   
IslandInland


Posts: 891
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline 		Sad to hear the news about John Tiller.

He truly was a titan of wargaming.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/squad-battles-vietnam/john-tiller-obituary



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War In The West Operation Torch Beta Tester
XXXCorps

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Post #: 18
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