Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But....

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But....

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But....

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/25/2021 7:18:50 PM

joviel
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 59
Joined: 9/3/2002
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

Played the intro scenario #1 several times, promoted myself to the 2nd. As German thought I was cooking pretty good. End of turn 2 I had taken Minsk and Bialystok. Hit "End Turn" and was informed I had lost via sudden death to the Russians. I'd lost no units, total manpower loss was about 7,500 men to the Russian 250,000. I can't see how other VP cities could have been taken in two turns.

So, what the hell? Is this game really THAT demanding? Because right now I'm too discouraged to approach it again...

< Message edited by joviel -- 4/25/2021 7:19:37 PM >

_____________________________

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

H.L. Mencken

Post #: 1

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/25/2021 7:53:28 PM

loki100
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joviel

Played the intro scenario #1 several times, promoted myself to the 2nd. As German thought I was cooking pretty good. End of turn 2 I had taken Minsk and Bialystok. Hit "End Turn" and was informed I had lost via sudden death to the Russians. I'd lost no units, total manpower loss was about 7,500 men to the Russian 250,000. I can't see how other VP cities could have been taken in two turns.

So, what the hell? Is this game really THAT demanding? Because right now I'm too discouraged to approach it again...

so, awful confession, never actually played the scenario but if I look at the VP chart I have a suspicion as to your problem. The Soviets get 500 each turn they hold Minsk, so if you take it on T2 that is +500 on their ledger and you can't get more than 200 (you score at the game end). To put that 500 in a different context, its 500,000 Soviet losses - remember you score 1 VP per 1,000, they score 1 VP per 100 of yours.

so just take the big numbers - Minsk T1 (500) + 7,500/100 (75) and you got Minsk at end (200) and 250.000/1,000 (250). So yep, its a defeat by the rules 575-450.

Your losses aren't bad so that is not your fundamental problem, its Minsk.

Now this is a practice scenario and getting the German 1941 offensive right is probably the biggest challenge, its a constant high wire balancing act.

My rough plan, use 4A to break open the Soviet front around Brest-Litovsk, 9A the same north of the Bialystok pocket. 2 PG needs to head north but will come up short on Minsk, not least you need to make sure the pocket is secure so drop off some formations on the way. 3 PG should be able to reach Minsk, you will need a few hasty attacks, you will need to gamble on ther real combat efficiency of Soviet formations being lower than they appear (but those are key skills in any case).

Try that, refine it, its really important to grab Minsk on T1, everything else is pretty secondary and its that sort of deep, risky, highly disruptive attack you need as the axis side.

There are also a few AARs, so have a look at how they run AGC over the opening turns. You can ignore the rest of what they show, just look at unit placements etc.

_____________________________

(in reply to joviel)

Post #: 2

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/25/2021 8:09:54 PM

neuromancer
Matrix Hero

Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline

I think I suffered the exact same thing when I tried the scenario. Although I had thought it was just meant to be a really short scenario.

One thing I've learned is that in the early turns it is okay to REALLY stick your neck out as the Germans. The Soviets may try to pocket you, but you can relieve the units before that becomes a problem as long as you don't do anything too crazy. So send those panzers chasing off across the countryside, grab Minsk, break up the Soviet lines and disrupt supply, make big pockets even though it is just captured territory (said disrupted supply) so your infantry can mop them up the next turn.

As Loki says, the Germans in early '41 has to run a high risk / high reward, deep, highly disruptive campaign in order to make those early gains to really get anywhere. Then they have to try and maintain momentum into the fall and early winter (that is the part I really have a problem with).

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 3

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/25/2021 10:28:22 PM

GloriousRuse
Matrix Hero

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline

This is one of those odd juxtapositions of players and reality. In reality, the German army, its planners, and the general staff were either at or damn near their peak in the summer of ‘41. A carefully planned, rehearsed and coordinated plan from a professional officer corps that had revitalizing itself since 1918 and had just incorporated a bunch of early war lessons. A tactical army that had been shaken out and refined, still with the east confidence brought from high human capital and experience blending - to include a famous winnowing of officers and NCOs post Poland to replace them with aggressive and talented new leaders (a luxury the Germans will not see again).

The player is usually the least informed, least experienced, and least in-the-flow on T1 unless he’s not only experienced, but has also knocked the rust off recently.

So we have this thing where players at their likely worst need to emulate the heer at its best.

Honestly, I like the house rule that between less than expert players the Germans can take a T1 mulligan.

< Message edited by GloriousRuse -- 4/25/2021 10:30:32 PM >

(in reply to neuromancer)

Post #: 4

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/25/2021 10:29:44 PM

carlkay58
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline

joviel - the scenario is only two turns in length so you finished the scenario rather than hit a Sudden Death defeat. You really must take Minsk on turn 1 to have a hope of winning. You do not have enough time to destroy the pockets so you will get very little VP from forming them. Concentrate on getting to those VP locations and work on containing the pocketed Soviets with your infantry armies to keep them off of the panzers.

(in reply to neuromancer)

Post #: 5

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/25/2021 10:39:24 PM

joviel
Matrix Trooper

Posts: 59
Joined: 9/3/2002
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

Thanks Gents, guess I would have been relegated to the cooking battalion in Barbarosa. Great help, great community, thanks again.

_____________________________

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

H.L. Mencken

(in reply to carlkay58)

Post #: 6

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/26/2021 1:34:02 AM

neuromancer
Matrix Hero

Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline

GloriousRose: And the Red Army was pretty much in exactly the opposite position!

I've heard it said that in many ways the Germans probably did the best that was possible with the situation, the highly skilled and capable Wehrmacht vs. a woefully unprepared Red Army, coupled with the Dunning-Kruger political leadership and a manufacturing/ supply system that was rife with empire building and people like Goring being more concerned about lining their own pockets. For them to do any better would have needed people other than Hitler, Goring, Himmler, et al in charge (in which case they might have avoided the entire mess in the first place).

This makes for especially difficult gaming where the Draw point is to do as well as the Germans did historically.

As you say, the players are rarely the same sort of professional soldiers that were in charge in '41, and there is usually only one player instead of a team that can offer other ideas and challenge assumptions. Of course on the other hand, our job tends to be simpler - if for no other reason than we don't actually have someone like Hitler or Himmler breathing down or necks!

Or Stalin, on the Soviet side...

(in reply to GloriousRuse)

Post #: 7

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/26/2021 3:58:02 AM

GloriousRuse
Matrix Hero

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline

It was definitely a Hannibal-Varro match up at the operational-tactical level. You’re unlikely to get a game between two players of that disparity...

That said, what we saw in beta was that once people started grokking the system, German average performance rose rapidly. Newer players typically have an easier time with the Soviets because they are both expected to fail at first and because the Soviet advantages are easy to see. As players get more experience a lot of the more subtle advantages of the Germans come to the fore in ways the Soviets are hard pressed to match until they can really build the army up. The AI is a different beast entirely, because it largely scales upwards through getting special privileges and “playing football with an offensive line of bulldozers” rather than maximizing the dynamic and explosive behavior of good German players that make them so hard to defend against. In short, as the overall experience of the player base goes up, so to do the results in the historical range.

Of course, there’s probably a whole lot of people who first pull the trigger on Axis side GC 41, and they meet to twin perils of not knowing the game very well yet while being in the phase of the war that demands the highest technical performance.

(in reply to neuromancer)

Post #: 8

RE: Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But.... - 4/26/2021 4:32:03 AM

neuromancer
Matrix Hero

Posts: 627
Joined: 5/30/2002
From: Canada
Status: offline

Fair enough.

I've been slamming my head against Leningrad and the SouthWest front to try and figure out I have to do. With some help from the folks here I've been learning new stuff, some I've been successful at implementing, and some... well, not so much.

(in reply to GloriousRuse)

Post #: 9

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> Thought I had a Shot at Learning This Beast, But....

Page: [1]