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First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 3:51:28 PM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		This assessment of the current ruleset being used by WITE2 to recreate the impact the winter of 1941/42 is based on having played 2 games against the AI, one multiplayer server game and an evaluation of the AARs that have been published that have gone through the first winter turns.

It is also based on the fact that I was a tester for WITE1 and most of my testing time was spent trying to get the game to simulate the effects of the first winter. Those who remember the initial launch of WITE1 will remember that the first winter rules were the first to receive changes, and it took a long time before the rules matched the general population’s playing ability and players learned to survive and come out of the winter in good enough condition to undertake a 1942 offensive. You can see all my posts in the WITE1 forums including the Field marshal Noob AAR and the survival guide I wrote.

The current WITE2 ruleset and AI programming has made it extremely hard for players to achieve anything like historical results.

The screenshot shows the historical benchmark that WITE2 has to replicate:

From December to March the Axis was pushed back about 120miles (12hexes) from Kalinnin/Moscow Front, 30-80 miles (3-8hexes) in the Tula/Livny area, 50miles in the Tihkvin area and from Rostov back to Mius river; about 40 miles or 4 hexes . Overall I calculated this to be approximately 600 hexes were retaken and this was the benchmark I used for my tests. It should be noted that historically no offensives took place or territory recaptured along the Orel/Kursk/Kharkhov/Maruipol Front during the whole period December to March.

So historically the most territory was regained in areas where the current ruleset makes it harder to regain territory, and the least territory was regained in areas where the ruleset makes it easiest to regain territory.

In WITE1 it was impossible to recreate the historical levels of recapture on the Orel/Kursk/Kharkhov axis, but a compromise pattern of play emerged whereby the Axis would attempt to build a defence line 6-8hexes east of the cities, get pushed back 6-8 hexes from December to February, then use the fact that the Axis turned back into supermen on the 1st of March and could recapture 3-4 hexes so the front line could get to a rough approximation of where the 1942 offensive jumped off from. This compromise, but non-historical pattern of play then became the standard for WITE1.

The WITE2 ruleset makes this pattern impossible to replicate, especially when playing against the AI, mainly because the Logistics and CV penalties applied to the Axis now last until the end of March so there is no opportunity to push back, particularly in the South.

The entrenchment rules, capping maximum entrenchment at level 1 when not in contact with enemy units has already become an exploit used by human players. This prevents players getting the much needed logistic and damage prevention benefits of Level 2 fortifications (See the panzers vs the bear AAR).

The new weather rules can extend the pain even further if April does not turn into mud as it did without fail in WITE1. I had 2 turns of snow for the first 2 turns of April.

One of the biggest issues I had with WITE1 was the use of asymmetrical rules that affected one side and not both sides equally, the best/worst example being the infamous 1:1 combat win for the soviets. WITE2 continues the pattern: I had originally felt that using the logistics and increased damage rules were the best way of of modelling the asymmetrical impact the first winter had on the Axis and Soviets historically, until the undocumented CV modifier was announced. Why do the axis suddenly fight ⅓ as well as the soviets on top of having their CV modified by logistics and damaged elements?

The biggest problem is the attack capacity of the AI. CarlKay58 has reported the same 90+ attacks in his AAR that I experienced, turn after turn with about 50/50 hold/loss results. At this rate of success it can push the Axis back at the historical rates in the Moscow/Kallinin front, in the South I think most players will not be able to stop the AI pushing past the cities of Orel Kursk and Kharkhov with minimal opportunity to recover.

Against human opponents I believe that the Axis can disrupt the Soviets enough so that they may not be able to muster as many attacks as the AI, but they will be attacking more lvl1 fortifications than the AI if they abuse the entrenchment rules. They will still get the extra 4-6 turns of attacking in March/April instead of losing territory as per WITE1. Human players can also use cavalry and mechanised units to isolate and destroy Axis units. The AI rarely achieves this. Historically no axis units were lost in pockets during the soviet winter offensive. The CV penalty rule gives the Axis little chance of breaking any pocket.

I do have a proposal using existing game mechanics that I believe will produce a more accurate recreation of the impact of the First Winter

Suggested Rule changes:

Remove the undocumented CV penalty.
Allow a fort level cap of 2 for units not in contact with the enemy.

Proposed New Rule/mechanic.

SOVIET WINTER OFFENSIVE 1941

As the soviets had limited logistics and command ability for the period December 1941-March 1942, the Soviets may designate a limited number of fronts for offensive operations (use the HQ Assault function but not the same rules).

All units assigned to the front may attack.
A penalty will be applied if the Front’s cc is exceeded. (Pro-rata?)
The “Assault” front will receive logistics/CV and MP bonuses to reflect their better winterisation and winter fighting experience compared to the Axis (10-20%? - that’s what testing is for)
Transfers between Fronts will either be disallowed or cost APs to prevent units being transferred for free to circumvent the cap on attacks.

Historically the Soviet's maximum attack frontage was 370-400 miles. This is approximately ⅓ of the front. (There are 120 hexes from Leningrad to Rostov), so this would mean on average 2-3 fronts should be designated as “assault fronts”, so I would suggest 4 Fronts for December, 3 for January and 2 for February and March.

Non-Assault Fronts can still move but not attack.

As the AI does not use Fronts or have any semblance of organisation it needs to have its attack capacity capped to a level that better reflects historical attack frontages. I would suggest 40 + D10 for December, 30 + D10 for January and 20 +D10 for February and March. Possibly apply triggers hexes to the AI so that it will not attack on the Orel/Kursk/Kharkhov Front until it has moved past Rhzev, for example.

Thank you for your kind attention.

TL:DR
The First Winter Rules for WITE2 are worse than WITE1’s were, but there may be a historically realistic fix.





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< Message edited by karonagames -- 4/26/2021 4:08:47 PM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 5:39:38 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		First off I would like to say that you should not use my AAR as indicative of Axis potential in the Winter 41/42 debate. You do limit your reference to my AAR to comparing the AI performance to your experience which is slightly less of a problem but the AI performance in these attacks are dependent on the quality of my play. The danger here is that I have not played through the Winter months in over a year and made several major mistakes. I reference that when it occurred to me that I had forgotten to build forts!

Second, the way you get around the fort level limit is to have a fort unit in the same hex. This raises your limit from level 1 to level 3 forts when not in contact with the enemy. Judicious use of fort units and infantry/engineers will generate a line of level 2 or 3 forts even in the rear areas. You then garrison the fort to maintain it, disband the fort unit, and recreate the fort unit in the next area that needs help. This is because both sides of strict limits of how many forts you can have on the map. It also keeps the fort unit from surrendering when attacked.

I think with better planning and execution of an organized winter defense that the AI would not attack as much nor have the roughly 50% success rate. I agree that the southern front will be most difficult to hold in the winter months for the Axis. This, however, I would put under the 'simulation deviates from history' as both the AI and players will do more fighting in the clear terrain rather the more restricted terrain to the north. In my game AGN has been left alone for a few turns and even AGC is only under moderate pressure but the AI is really concentrating in the south which is contrary to historical emphasis so you will see more territory lost in the south than historical.

I think more examples will have to be collected before you can really say things are totally out of whack. The situation is more severe than in WitE1. The combat odds advantage that the Soviets had in WitE1 (winning on 1:1 odds) was removed and the new reliance on passing leadership checks put in. The period also lasts longer along with the penalties for trucks and supplies does put much more stress on the Axis player.



< Message edited by carlkay58 -- 4/26/2021 5:40:46 PM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 6:32:17 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		We're very interested in hearing more about players' experiences with first winter in WitE2. As none of us were aware of the CV penalties until after release, Gary and I have discussed altering them if/when we get more feedback on how things play out. One question I ask is did you use super depots during your first winter? Erik recently played a game against the AI where he had not and was pushed around badly. When he replayed using super depots the situation was much better and he went on to win the game in 1942.

My sense is that the German ability to counterattack during the first winter is still there, although the German units degrade quickly once they come out to fight. I have to admit we haven't really thought of how to deal with the exploit of Soviet players backing away from the enemy to prevent fort building over 2. Aside from the suggestion of using some APs to build fort units, perhaps the rule could be altered to make it possible to build when adjacent to an enemy controlled hex instead of an enemy unit (I'm assuming that you are saying the rule is about being next to an enemy unit and not an enemy hex?

In any event, we're open to reviewing things but we need to see more player results.

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 7:21:09 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		I also think we need to predicate this on AI at 110 morale or higher. I can say for a fact I'm average at best on this game and I'm playing normal AI (100 morale) at like 608 HWM VP and currently in March 1942. AI has at most advanced one hex in my entire line from north to south. So, the normal Soviet AI is performing well worse than historical. AI on 110 is a whole different ball game

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 9:10:28 PM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline 		As an aside, you can still dig to 2 out of contact, thereby securing your line. The AAR you're referencing in this case is inaccurate; the German units there did not dig to 2 because they were in assault status and the human soviet player stayed out of contact because he didn't want to get ruined by local spoiling attacks in November. No such exploit exists.

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 9:53:47 PM   
Kronolog

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 3/23/2011
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Playing against the Soviet AI at 110 (everything), I found that during the winter I could only reliably hold onto territories around super depots. Using all of my FBD on depots, I could hold onto the Volkhov, Rhzev, Orel and Stalino, while the AI could advance more or less at will between these points. I had to use all of reinforcements to cover the lenghtening frontline.

Also, if you pool all your transport aircraft close to one super depot, you can in a sense gain a fifth super depot by flying freight to a regular depot not to far away.

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 10:37:36 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I tested and yes you can increase forts over 1 if adjacent to an enemy hex (not unit). There may be a way to withdraw in some cases and when German divisions move they might take control of the hexes in front of them. If they do this will all adjacent hexes, they could limit the units from building forts over size 1. So it's not impossible to see units effectively on the front line be in a situation where they can't build above size 1, but it's not as simple as just withdrawing. Not sure there's an easy way around that issue if it is in fact an issue.

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/26/2021 11:33:01 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames


The WITE2 ruleset makes this pattern impossible to replicate, especially when playing against the AI, mainly because the Logistics and CV penalties applied to the Axis now last until the end of March so there is no opportunity to push back, particularly in the South.



I think your overall post makes a lot of good points and it is good to hear that the dev team are open to looking at how things are going and making changes if necessary.

That said I would sound some notes of caution:

1) I think that the part I've quoted is an oversimplification of the ruleset - at least in terms of my understanding of the various rules are documented (so I may have misunderstood them or the game might not be working as described in the manual). As far as the ruleset goes my understanding is that the initially undocumented CV/combat rules only apply in "heavy snow" conditions. For the moment I am going to assume that the use of this term is consistent with the in-game descriptions and documentation and is referring to ground conditions. The manual states that "heavy snow" equates to snow levels 8-9. The next part is where either my understanding or the game behaviour compared to the documentation may be going astray. As far as I can tell you can only get heavy snow when the air condition is blizzard. If the air condition is snowfall then the ground snow level should be limited to 7 and the CV/combat rules should not apply. Furthermore the manual suggests that the "dominating weather conditions" never exceed snowfall at any point in any area - you can only get blizzard conditions (and the consequent heavy snow ground condition) when the default conditions are modified by a weather front. So in theory you should not be seeing those undocumented rules applying across the map from December to March but instead only in geographically limited areas around the polar/arctic weather fronts.

2) Obviously we want the game to broadly follow history when you have evenly matched players. So at a basic level you need the Soviets to be able to take the initiative over the winter and beat up on the Axis forces and on the other side you can't have that go too far so that the Axis can't mount any significant offensive operations until the summer of 42. But I think that getting any deeper than that and trying to get the game to 'match' history at a smaller scale is a bit of a fools errand. I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of people buying the game will have a sufficient knowledge of the IRL history of the war that they are not going to willingly repeat the two big errors of the 41 winter - the Axis overstretching in an attempt to take Moscow in late 41 and the equivalent Soviet overstretch in early 42 when they thought they had broken their opponents, exhausted their forces and left themselves vulnerable to the Axis counteroffensive. You can see an example of that in the Bobo v GR AAR - that game has gone broadly according to history but when it came towards winter Bobo declined the risks inherent in making a late assault on Moscow (and perhaps just as importantly GR knew that this was unlikely and was able to act accordingly). My view is that you could adjust the VP system to try and encourage those kinds of offensives (at the simplest level you'd set it up so that the Axis can only get a 1942 auto victory if they have held Moscow or Leningrad in 1941). But by doing that you potentially end up with a balance whereby you get those kinds of apocalyptic clashes over winter 41 but then end up with a situation where the vast majority of games have their outcome essentially decided within the first year of the war. Personally (assuming equal player abilities) I'd rather have 41 winters that are more stable/less dramatic than history and games that remain in the balance all the way through the war.

3) I believe that the baseline aim is a game that is broadly balanced and historic and where the mechanics are working as intended and are correctly documented. Just to be clear - by stating that I'm not making any comment on how close or far WITE2 is from that state. The point I want to make is that once you are in that position it is important to acknowledge that it is very difficult to have things balanced in a way that everybody is happy with. My feeling is that the WITE/WITE2 community is pretty mature and fair-minded but human nature being what it is I think that you are always going to get situations where a player that is broadly well matched with their opponent doesn't have things go their way and looks towards the game mechanics/balance for an explanation rather than their own level of play (or that of their opponent). Similarly it is always going to be really difficult to have a game that is balanced for all of beginner/intermediate/advanced players. So potentially a 'sympathetic' solution for intermediate Axis players will have advanced pairings complaining that the game is overly favourable to the Axis. If you then balance the game to meet those concerns you start getting beginner/intermediate Axis players complaining that their forces are getting destroyed. The same principle goes for the Soviet side. My guess is that in the long term we might well see a reintroduction of the WITE1 game options of giving the Soviets +1 and/or selecting harsh/normal first winters as the best way to give players/pairings of different skill levels the ability to set the game up to their liking.

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 4/26/2021 11:53:22 PM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 12:18:14 AM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline 		Sammy is correct on the rules. There is never a perma-blizzard, just fronts that roll through “snowfall” dominant zones. One week of blizzard creates a patchwork of Snow(no CV malus, lesser winter supply and attrition maluses) and Heavy Snow (the Bad Stuff for the Germans). Two weeks and it’s pretty consistent, but it usually melts off very quickly after the front passes. You can have moments of continuous pressure suddenly broken by a two to three week stint where the weather clears and all of a sudden the Germans have that damnable ability to reset that means the next big push is going to be bloody.

As for counterattacks...in beta my preferred German winter defense was holding the panzers on depots, then surging forward to smash the attack and move exhausted Soviets before withdrawing again. There was one town that literally traded hands every week for three months straight, to the tune of about 200k Soviets dying for that one hex...

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 12:20:07 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		In my AAR I have no Super Depots. I also did absolutely no pre-winter line prep because it slipped my mind. I could have done better and hope to improve in the remaining winter turns. I have had several successful counterattacks and have caused some good levels of Soviet casualties despite my lack of preparation.

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 9:02:39 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		In my first game against the AI I did not use super depots. In my multiplayer game I did, and it made a difference, but the circumstances were different in that I had weakened the soviets before December so that they could not get the same offensive momentum that the AI gets.

My main point is that the new "Meta" is based on receiving and losing bonus victory points based on capturing and holding objectives before and for longer than they were historically. Capture Orel in October, build a defense line 3-4 hexes east of the city and then hold the city until September 1943 is what the game is saying I have to do to stand a chance of "winning" the game. How easy does the current ruleset make this to achieve? With or without super depots.

< Message edited by karonagames -- 4/27/2021 11:44:17 AM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 11:01:33 AM   
MechFO

 

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline 		There are 2 approaches one can take, river and railroad. Right now much of WITE2 is like a river, setting systemic constraints but allowing for a lot of variation within those constraints. First winter rules are a railroad, to achieve a specfic desired outcome rule changes that don't fit at all with the rest of the game are implemented to force the issue.

The first winter defence rules make as much sense as teleporting an Army to Stalingrad in Winter 42 and freezing it for a dozen turns. The players get to recreate Stalingrad but it doesn't fit with the overall design and feels out of place.

The winter counteroffensive had it's historic result because the Germans had badly overextended and understrength units sitting in at best level 1 forts with a collapsing logistics system.

Ergo, that is the baseline. IMO the AI given this setup will get a credible winter offensive going against any player without any combat modifiers needed to help it along.

Why is this not happening? IMO VP for sudden victory are too high, replacements are too easy and Superdepots break the desired logistic problems.


Sudden Victory VP is too high:

I think for the first winter the treshhold for sudden victory shouldn't be driven by would the Soviets capitulate, but wether so much damage is inflicted and such an advantagous position achieved that the war becomes a forgone conclusion.

700-750 VP is excessive, I had 620 by December (100 morale game). 650 or maybe even 660 might have been achievable if I had gone all out, but since it was clear fairly early on that sudden victory was out of the reach, focus shifted to destroying the Soviet Army and preparing for Winter/Summer 42. I think this is same for most players. The VP must be the system to incentivize players to overextend themselves, and this needs a big carrot.

Superdepots break the harsh winter rules:

A superdepot means ample supply for at least a few turns for an army if not an army group. In December/January this did not happen and is not reasonable. IMO Superdepots should not be an option for the Germans during Blizzard turns until March 42. At least not east of Minsk or maybe Kiev.

Another idea is to clear less rail in blizzard turns. Maybe instead of removing 5/6, only 2/3 or even half. This would gradually choke the logistics ability, regardless of wheter superdepots are allowed or not.

Replacements are too easy:

The damage from being exposed by winter is good (except tanks should get damaged from moving, not sitting still), but it is circumvented by replacements flowing too easily, also due to the ease of supply from Superdepots. IMO tightening the logistic system will help, but in the end what is needed is some hardcap on the number of replacements a unit can draw. This would also help funnel scarce freight in a harsher logistic system to supply and ammo and allow the Soviets to attrit German units down by repeated attack and force them back even if they are in relatively good shape going into winter.




< Message edited by MechFO -- 4/27/2021 11:18:01 AM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 11:03:06 AM   
karonagames


Posts: 4712
Joined: 7/10/2006
From: The Duchy of Cornwall, nr England
Status: offline 		As it was a server game I do not have screenshot evidence, but in the 4 turns my opponent remained out of contact in November, my frontline that was not in assault mode did not increase to lvl 2 fortifications until after he moved back into contact on the first turn of December.

< Message edited by karonagames -- 4/27/2021 11:22:05 AM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 12:51:51 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		MechFO -

The first winter rules are not a 'railroad' forcing a specific outcome. They are a way to illustrate that the Axis command had no idea what the weather was really going to effect. Their first surprise was the mud. Although everyone knew about the fall and spring rains there were extremely few people in the Axis high commands (or even lower) that had any idea just what that means. According to a person I met a few years ago that grew up in Kiev there are still Axis vehicles that can be found almost entirely buried in the ground from when they were mired in the mud in 1941. She also says that you do not step on 'dirt' during the rain season because you will sink up to your knees in it.

Then the weather turned cold. The November freeze was seen as a blessing as the mud froze and you could move again. The Axis knew about the cold and the snow but the magnitude of both shocked them. The effects of extreme cold was surprising as anti-freeze and lubricants froze. This was not even considered, let alone planned for, by the Axis at any level. The effects on the CV can be seen as based on this type of surprise. That and when the Soviets went over on to the offensive it was virtually impossible for the Axis soldiers to dig in for defense. According to an actual veteran German soldier I had a nice conversation about it artillery craters were the best defensive positions. In many areas they relied on snow forts for fortifications - much better for concealment than protection. But snow is also a great insulator and it helped them stay warm.

As to the Sudden Death Victories/Defeat they will probably be tuned after enough results are observed with a wider play than the playtesting was able to do. They changed several times in testing and it is quite possible to achieve those VPs against both the AI and humans. Odds are that an Axis Sudden Victory will be more likely in 42 but it drives the Axis in 41 to set up the possibility for a 42 Sudden Victory.

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 3:50:18 PM   
MechFO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

MechFO -

The first winter rules are not a 'railroad' forcing a specific outcome. They are a way to illustrate that the Axis command had no idea what the weather was really going to effect.

Their first surprise was the mud. Although everyone knew about the fall and spring rains there were extremely few people in the Axis high commands (or even lower) that had any idea just what that means. According to a person I met a few years ago that grew up in Kiev there are still Axis vehicles that can be found almost entirely buried in the ground from when they were mired in the mud in 1941. She also says that you do not step on 'dirt' during the rain season because you will sink up to your knees in it.

Then the weather turned cold. The November freeze was seen as a blessing as the mud froze and you could move again. The Axis knew about the cold and the snow but the magnitude of both shocked them. The effects of extreme cold was surprising as anti-freeze and lubricants froze. This was not even considered, let alone planned for, by the Axis at any level.


Fighting in snow was not the problem per se, it should not lead to a 50%-90% defence reduction. Germans were encircling multiple Soviet Armies in January/February in the same snow that apparently spelled doom in December.

The inadequate preparation of front line units was due to a supply crisis and subsequant low prioritisation of winter equipment coupled with a strategic and operational intelligence failure. Anti Freeze as far as I know worked when it got issued, the problem was inadequate supplies of it reaching the front. Oil and lubricants freezing was a problem, but not a new one, winter mixtures were available in the supply chain but again not enough reached the units.


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
The effects on the CV can be seen as based on this type of surprise. That and when the Soviets went over on to the offensive it was virtually impossible for the Axis soldiers to dig in for defense. According to an actual veteran German soldier I had a nice conversation about it artillery craters were the best defensive positions. In many areas they relied on snow forts for fortifications - much better for concealment than protection. But snow is also a great insulator and it helped them stay warm.


These factors can be said to be covered by the damage/fatigue/supply mechnic. A division did not arbitrarily defend at 10% of it's effectivenes. The German operations in January/February, fresh, winter equipped and operating near supply sources, clearly show this. The suprise you speak of is covered by units still suffering winter damage even if in relatively good supply and the player knows winter is coming i.e. he can't choose to fully winterproof his units.

The difficulty of digging into frozen ground is and should be handeled by the fortification build speeds and from reading first hand accounts, the biggest problems was the constant need to move or be outflanked. The constant forced marches led exposure and overburdened the ever fewer transports which in turn led to a snowballing of equipment losses and casualties. This is already in the game, maybe with too weak effect.

Hold the historic frontline with the historic unit density and conditions, I'm very confident you will get something close to historic offensives even without CV modifiers.


< Message edited by MechFO -- 4/27/2021 3:55:33 PM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 6:40:24 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		Ill be honest I'm a bit confused who is arguing for what, but I side more on MechFO's side that I think there's too much benefit to the Axis. Maybe a lower VP makes them more aggressive in winter? Who knows. I will say for a game of this complexity I'd say it's modeled fairly well, based on my experiences. Also need to understand that while the game has a lot of intricate and interconnected systems, it's a lot easier to balance and test a simple CV penalty rather than trying to achieve the same result by manipulating the supply system + replacements + VP + other factors. Is it less historic this way? Sure, but to me game balance is the most important and if that's easier to code and test and balance via one modifier change (albeit you can argue a generic CV modifier is less realistic or historic versus modifying the others), then that's the best approach.

I don't think Gary or any of the coders are actually saying "the Germans literally lost 50% of their firepower or combat strength across the board in Dec 1941", but a CV modifier is the easiest way to try and replicate the historical results, while keeping in mind the needs of the AI. There's levels of abstraction that are necessary in all games, even insanely complex ones like this. It's always a balance and a give and take but I'm confident with more play-testing they'll continue to tweak it based on our and their observations.

< Message edited by Bamilus -- 4/27/2021 6:41:25 PM >

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RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 8:27:33 PM   
dudefan

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/26/2021
Status: offline 		Imo logistics is too easy for axis. Besides December and January I float with supplies and replacements. In April I had every rail to the front repaired.

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 17
RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 8:39:49 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		I personally think that Axis supply is too easy. It is too easy to supply those panzer spearheads way out front than it should be even without using the Super Depots. I just don't get the right feel as the Axis of sweating over the supply situation that I think I should.

(in reply to dudefan)
Post #: 18
RE: First Winter Blues - 4/27/2021 11:55:09 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I personally think that Axis supply is too easy. It is too easy to supply those panzer spearheads way out front than it should be even without using the Super Depots. I just don't get the right feel as the Axis of sweating over the supply situation that I think I should.


I bet you you are burning trucks at an alarming rate too. Are you?

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 19
RE: First Winter Blues - 4/28/2021 1:24:23 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		Some but not beyond normal. Do Super Depots save trucks? Yeah they probably do because you pull a lot of freight up to the last large railyard so less traffic, but you can see in my AAR I actually have some pretty short truck distances without using the Super Depots. That and the large railyards in AGN and AGC are pretty far back from the front lines. AGS has the large railyards (Kursk, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, and Zaporozhe) are in the front lines.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 20
RE: First Winter Blues - 4/28/2021 1:47:40 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Some but not beyond normal. Do Super Depots save trucks? Yeah they probably do because you pull a lot of freight up to the last large railyard so less traffic, but you can see in my AAR I actually have some pretty short truck distances without using the Super Depots. That and the large railyards in AGN and AGC are pretty far back from the front lines. AGS has the large railyards (Kursk, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, and Zaporozhe) are in the front lines.


What is your truck usage at if I can ask. I really haven't looked at much other than my 4 ongoing games and a few posts, lol. Because truck repair rate is horrid from what I have seen. Using the wrong strat, like I am using in one of my AAR's and German burns trucks like gas on fire.

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 21
RE: First Winter Blues - 4/28/2021 3:55:00 AM   
GloriousRuse

 

Posts: 906
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline 		Also, the strict “loss of CV in heavy snow, with possible checks for more” models what would otherwise be an outlier situation. Namely, that a bunch of men freezing to death in winter clothes, barely able to do more than huddle miserably in unheated holes or frozen steel tanks, with probably much larger portions of their force kept off the line and tucked into dug outs, huts, etc simply to stay alive rather than for tactical location, unable to mount effective patrols in the weather, barely able to communicate as runners collapse and get lost, radios break, and commanders and staffs struggle to ever meet to disseminate information below the division level...all that has to be modeled. NCOs carry oit fewer and fewer inspections, transitioning weakest first from leaders to miserable humans like their soldiers. Because it isn’t just “we lost six extra percent to wastage” it’s the psychological and tactical effect of that when you’re trying to live in sub zero temps in howling snowstorms in a piece of summer cloth.

And then, and then the goddamn Russians come and fight you, and the stug platoon that was the battalion reserve can’t start their engines to ever reach your position, and hans has been ****ting himself with diarrhea while Michael can barely aim his MG because he lost two fingers to frostbite but hasn’t been pulled off the line, and no one can clear the jams quickly because their hands are covered in rags, while barrels are breaking and warping just from the sudden heat up because no one really expected THIS, and the commanders know they should be moving to see the situation and they will, but that burning human need to stay warm, to not face the bitter cold, weights their decisions to wait a few minutes more before heading to that position, before deciding that report really needs checking out, and it all adds up...

You can’t model that with “well, six percent wastage, and the rest fight like normal”


(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 22
RE: First Winter Blues - 4/28/2021 12:51:31 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		On turn 30 the truck usage is below. The repair pool is bad and I am looking forward to it starting to go down in the next month or two.






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(in reply to GloriousRuse)
Post #: 23
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