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OT - Sub missing - 4/22/2021 3:00:52 PM

fcooke

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https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/22/asia/missing-indonesian-submarine-oxygen-intl/index.html

I think (but hope not) that this one is is toast. Two ships with side scan sonar with good idea of where she went down cannot find her...bad. Hopefully it comes up good, but that is a 40 year old sub.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/22/2021 5:08:43 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/22/asia/missing-indonesian-submarine-oxygen-intl/index.html

I think (but hope not) that this one is is toast. Two ships with side scan sonar with good idea of where she went down cannot find her...bad. Hopefully it comes up good, but that is a 40 year old sub.

A report I just read says its oxygen could last until Saturday. That might give time to find her but I wonder if any sort of rescue vessel could be at hand then. Very hard to survive swimming up from over 100 feet down. A diving bell or submersible is needed.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/22/2021 6:13:26 PM

spence

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The magnetic object located rather imprecisely by the Indonesian Navy at 50-100 meters could be the HNLMS Piet Hein (torpedoed by HIJMS Asashio) sunk in the Battle of the Badung Strait on 19 Feb 1942. The information in the article is kind of confusing since at different points they say that a magnetic object was located at a depth of 50-100 meters and further on in the article say the sub could safely dive to 500 meters but that depth might have been exceeded.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/24/2021 12:47:27 AM

RangerJoe

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The US and possibly other nations have small submarines that can be loaded onto aircraft and be nearby within 48h hours. If the submarine can be found and is in a proper position for a rescue attempt, by starting to remove sailors that could extend the oxygen supply for those that are left. Oxygen tanks and probably carbon dioxide absorbers which could be better utilized could be brought down to the submarine as well.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/24/2021 6:36:25 AM

Ian R

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quote:

Indonesian submarine search: hopes fade as oxygen deadline passes

Not looking good.

The fact that a USN P8 couldn't find it in a limited shallow water area suggests they might be looking in the wrong place.

Report link

< Message edited by Ian R -- 4/24/2021 6:38:44 AM >

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/24/2021 12:37:34 PM

Denniss

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It has now officially been declared lost after they found wreckage parts from the interior of the sub.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/24/2021 12:57:58 PM

Ian R

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Underwater explosion, or depth induced hull break up?

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/24/2021 1:58:22 PM

Denniss

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we'll know once they locate the hull

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/24/2021 5:31:49 PM

Rusty1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

It has now officially been declared lost after they found wreckage parts from the interior of the sub.

Quick death...but sounds like a catastrophic explosion...

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/24/2021 6:03:13 PM

fcooke

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A bit odd since they had a recent comms from her and there has been a bunch of S&R going on. Not sure why she has not been found yet.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/25/2021 5:29:10 PM

tolsdorff

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Sad to hear but the submarine has been found at 800 meters depth.

according to Navy Chief of Staff Yudo Margono :

quote:

..more items from the submarine had been recovered including an anchor and crew safety suits.

The KRI Nanggala is divided into three parts, the hull of the ship, the stern of the ship, and the main parts are all separated, with the main part found cracked...

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/25/2021 5:37:31 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

Sad to hear but the submarine has been found at 800 meters depth.

according to Navy Chief of Staff Yudo Margono :

quote:

..more items from the submarine had been recovered including an anchor and crew safety suits.

The KRI Nanggala is divided into three parts, the hull of the ship, the stern of the ship, and the main parts are all separated, with the main part found cracked...

May the crew Rest In Peace.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/25/2021 9:09:34 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

quote:

Indonesian submarine search: hopes fade as oxygen deadline passes

Not looking good.

The fact that a USN P8 couldn't find it in a limited shallow water area suggests they might be looking in the wrong place.

Report link

A P-8 could only locate it if the sub was alive and it's engine was making noise. The normal way to pinpoint a sub in relatively shallow waters is via MAD. P-8's have no MAD. So it's not likely to find a dead sub. Active SONAR bouys might work , but only if it's on a flat , conducive bottom. :(

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/25/2021 9:58:03 PM

fcooke

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I had no idea P-8s had no MAD. Any background on why that decision was made?

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 9:00:56 AM

Ian R

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I had no idea P-8s had no MAD. Any background on why that decision was made?

Likewise - thought they would be using that.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 12:41:49 PM

RangerJoe

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Probably to keep the cost down.

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Post #: 16

RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 1:51:59 PM

Denniss

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From wiki:
The Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment as a weight reduction measure, improving endurance.
They should have used a better basic airframe, not the smallish B737

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 3:41:40 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

From wiki:
The Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) deleted the requirement for the P-8A to be equipped with magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) equipment as a weight reduction measure, improving endurance.
They should have used a better basic airframe, not the smallish B737

Weight reduction implies that something else was demanding use of the carrying capacity - newer systems that communicate with satellites for example.
I also suspect that advances in sub construction were reducing the magnetic fingerprint a lot - use of titanium and coating hulls with sound absorbing material, perhaps with some magnetism blanketing effect? Just speculating, but if MAD was still very useful they would not have deleted it.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 4:31:01 PM

dcpollay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I had no idea P-8s had no MAD. Any background on why that decision was made?

I have also read that the jet engines are terribly inefficient at the low altitudes required by MAD searches.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 6:53:31 PM

fcooke

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P-8s are bigger than P-3s.....

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 9:28:58 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I had no idea P-8s had no MAD. Any background on why that decision was made?

Mostly because operating the P-8 at MAD trapping altitudes would be very dangerous (Jets don't do well at that altitude...ask the Brit's how hard it was for the Nimrod). Also Boeing and other contractors convinced the USN that if necessary the New Triton drone (which is supposed to work with the P-8) could allegely be fitted with MAD. Of course . The Japanese on the other hand rejected the P-8 and built their own MPA , the P-1. Which has MAD...as well as four engines! :)

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 9:32:52 PM

AW1Steve

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You and will have to disagree on that. With MAD I found Akula's , Sierra's, Kilo's and Victor 3's , and many, many other subs (including USN and UK). While they don't belive in MAD , why on earth did they bring back "Sniffer"? (WHICH hasn't worked since the early 1960's. )

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 9:33:31 PM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

P-8s are bigger than P-3s.....

So are 747's. What's your point?

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 9:35:32 PM

AW1Steve

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The "Newest USN" is VERY risk adverse. Flying low is mildly dangerous. So they plan on flying at over 20,000 feet. Nice and safe. And the crew now has "Airliner style chairs" . But the new toilet doesn't work either.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/26/2021 10:59:45 PM

fcooke

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Hi Steve,

Just that therefore the P-8 should be able to carry more gear that the P-3. And like you said you were able to find some pretty modern subs with MAD. I guess the only thing that makes sense is the mission profile has the P-8s flying too high to effectively use MAD. I guess the sonobouy budget is going to be quite high.

And a 747 kitted out as a search/asw bird would be quite the sight to see

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/27/2021 1:29:37 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Hi Steve,

Just that therefore the P-8 should be able to carry more gear that the P-3. And like you said you were able to find some pretty modern subs with MAD. I guess the only thing that makes sense is the mission profile has the P-8s flying too high to effectively use MAD. I guess the sonobouy budget is going to be quite high.

And a 747 kitted out as a search/asw bird would be quite the sight to see

Most of the AW's I served with were always hoping for a MPA version of the B-52. But if you ever want to read about a really badass ASW plane , look up the Canadian Argus. Double crews , much bigger than a P-3 and it would run out of oil before gas.

The only real problem with the P-8 is that it's really only good for finding nuke subs. Diesel boats hide in the shadows and shallows, spend most of the time on batteries , and can rest on the bottom. A nuke boat , like a shark , generally always has to keep moving. And are a LOT bigger than a little diesel boat.

The USN hasn't really done that much with the shallows since Vietnam. And hasn't spent much time looking for shallow water diesels since the cold war. The only thing of recent "shallow" water usage has been the LCS's (Littoral Combat Ships) which a lot of the crews I've spoken to call "Little crappy ships". The USN has always let our allies (Like NATO) build patrol , PT or hydrofoil craft , while it focused on the "Blue water world". Every 40 or so years we seem to need to relearn those skills.

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/28/2021 1:57:04 AM

Footslogger

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I wonder what happened?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF3g6oRQrG0

If it broke into 3 pieces, did that happen at the surface or when the hull was crushed?

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RE: OT - Sub missing - 4/28/2021 9:25:39 PM

fcooke

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She ended up pretty deep. I'm not sure how they can rule out human error until they recover the parts of the subs. I assume no ASW assets were in the area or they would have heard the breaking up noises. Maybe the practice torp fuel did blow for some reason. Or maybe she was crushed and as falling to deeper depth seems gave way and she broke up. The sub was 40 years old and likely not as strong as when she was a youngster. Not sure what the plans were for how much longer to keep her in service, probably not too long since they have something like 6 boats ordered from S Korea, with I think a couple delivered already. But I guess ex-US Gatos and Balaos served for maybe 50 years or more, but I could not find anything on retirement plans - though I didn't try too hard.

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