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Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/26/2021 3:43:09 PM   
therealevan

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 9/13/2016
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Hi all,

I played some WiTE1 on & off for the past few years and became pretty familiar and effective with how that air system works. However in WiTE2, I feel like I am really struggling to understand the added layers of complexities and haven't had any success as the Axis. My first 'go' at setting up air directives / air groups I only swatted 1300 soviet planes... but lost almost 900 of my own planes as 'operational losses'!

I've watched a few youtube videos and have read through the one page guides in the manual, but I think I'm just struggling to figure out what I absolutely *need* to do or not do as the Axis.. or any general tips would be really useful.

Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/26/2021 3:51:39 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		there are a couple of discussion threads in the war-room sub-folder on the air war that might help you.

From what you say, the key thing is to forget about what worked in WiTE1 - esp for the air war. its not just the mechanics of setting up missions that is different, its the entire part of the game. In particular, pushing your airforce to the limits triggers substantial operational losses

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Post #: 2
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/26/2021 4:06:19 PM   
therealevan

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 9/13/2016
From: Washington State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

there are a couple of discussion threads in the war-room sub-folder on the air war that might help you.

From what you say, the key thing is to forget about what worked in WiTE1 - esp for the air war. its not just the mechanics of setting up missions that is different, its the entire part of the game. In particular, pushing your airforce to the limits triggers substantial operational losses



I'll take a look, thanks Loki!

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 3
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/27/2021 11:12:21 AM   
Vermin

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/12/2018
Status: offline 		This seems like the right place to post: I'm focusing on the ground war (as the Soviets vs AI) so I've set the air war to be completely AI controlled. I don't expect optimal results - I'd be happy with mediocre - perfectly matches my talent as commander! - but there seems to be a few.. "issues"!
1) I have shed loads of planes and groups quietly resting in the SR box, but my other offmap TBs are only about 75% Air met - and the AI doesn't seem to want to help. That could be VP expensive over the long term. Unless I've missed a trick, I can't transfer air units anywhere but the SR unless (I assume) I turn off AI control. I think the AI could/should do a better job of meeting the air requirements from the spare capacity in the SR.
2) My bombers don't fly. [Okay, on VERY rare occasions they might send a squasdron if I am attacking but otherwise, Soviet bomber sorties is 0, nil nada, nyet every day and night for 7 days.]They eat and sleep a lot but that is pretty much it. I'm relying on the AI to target enemy hexes, conduct interdiction missions and all that good stuff but - they don't. Perhaps they could drop a few bombs on enemy airfield or go hunting Panzers instead of an extra helping of desert but they lack the proper motivation. Again, I'm letting the AI set all the Directives and my losses are non-existent so no need to play with the Doctrines, which is as far as I'm supposed to engage with the Air AI right - that and assigning follow HQ where required.
If I understand it, correctly, I can still try to set particular directives for a turn, but after conducting those mission for the turn, when I press the "Execute" button, they will be wiped for the start of the next turn That seems, inefficient. I really just want them to show some initiative and do what they are paid for.

I could learn the micro detail of the airwar - but I have only so much brain capacity at the moment and it is grappling still with the ground war. I would love to be able to trust the Air AI to do what it says on the box it can do. Please help before my pilots get so fat they can't fit into the cockpit.

Zampolit (failed) Vermin


(in reply to therealevan)
Post #: 4
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/27/2021 11:33:16 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		its useful/essential to be clear about the AI-assist.

If you tick that option when you set up the game, it keys off the F12 instances and you can't over-ride.

If you don't, then you probably need to click the AI-assist button twice in a turn and can then alter the choices manually.

Just saying this as a lot of problems seem to stem from it not being clear which is being adopted.

Lets take the pure AI-assist:

1) it is averse to deployment where there are supply problems and will often pull air groups to the reserve if it can't find suitable bases. It is actually far better at this judgement than most players are (incl me)

2) the AI won't voluntarily send to other theatres, those shortages will sort themselves out. Remember its a one way choice, if it sends extra it can't reclaim them

3) The Soviet air AI splits the VVS into 2 blocks. The strategic air command and everything else. The former will do strategic bombing (using the priorities you set in the air doctrine table) but will tend to go for rail yards (a basically good choice). So if you want those missions make sure the Strat command is at a high enough priority to grab the air groups and following a useful command

4) for the rest the AI will do nothing but recon and GS. This is not a poor choice, with the Soviets in 1941 there are no really useful interdiction targets and while GA-unit can be useful its secondary to GS in its overall impact

5) it does naval patrol and air supply pretty well, subject to the orders you set up.

Now back to the start. If you go the F12 route, you have to live with this, there are tricks to get more out of it all but generally the VVS is/should be underwhelming in 1941

If you use the other option, press AI-assist, review what its done for air directives, amend/delete/add to as you wish, press F12. In the ground phase, press AI-assist at some stage (this is mostly when it will physically redeploy), alter to taste.

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Post #: 5
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/27/2021 4:41:34 PM   
loudscott

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 8/2/2016
Status: offline 		Right. So here's the thing. With Auto Assist selected in the game preferences and therefore the button is greyed out and the AI is supposed to overwrite your changes and additions to AD's. But it doesn't. At least not for me. I've had this same discussion on Discord. Here is a screenshot from Road to Leningrad that I did to sanity check what I'm saying. I added a GA against the airbase at Riga. I didn't even change it from the default settings in the Air Doctrine so it ran over multiple days. What DID NOT happen was the AI-Assist wiping the AD off after I clicked F12. See the results:

Well you'll have to click the attachment. The forum refuses to allow me to embed the pic but I can upload it. In any event, I can add, edit and delete ADs as I wish WITH the Auto Assist selected as a game option.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by loudscott -- 4/27/2021 4:44:40 PM >

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 6
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/27/2021 6:44:50 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		loudscott - to embed a picture you have to REPLY to a specific message not using the Fast Reply section in the bottom of the forum screen.

(in reply to loudscott)
Post #: 7
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/27/2021 6:58:57 PM   
loudscott

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 8/2/2016
Status: offline 		I'm aware. But I get the "you're not allowed because blah blah blah" pop up




edit: Whelp, I guess my 10 days of not being allowed are over....hahahaha

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by loudscott -- 4/27/2021 7:02:54 PM >

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 8
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/27/2021 8:11:15 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		There is a way as the Axis to setup 13 AD (3 of which are GS and 10 are GA) and knock out 3,200-3,500 Soviet Aircraft prior to the land phase. Granted doing things my way does loose me 320-375 German planes (two of my attacks on turn 1 are out of fighter escort range. And then in the Ground phase you can overrun 500-1200 aircraft.

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Post #: 9
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/27/2021 11:59:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: therealevan

Hi all,

I played some WiTE1 on & off for the past few years and became pretty familiar and effective with how that air system works. However in WiTE2, I feel like I am really struggling to understand the added layers of complexities and haven't had any success as the Axis. My first 'go' at setting up air directives / air groups I only swatted 1300 soviet planes... but lost almost 900 of my own planes as 'operational losses'!

I've watched a few youtube videos and have read through the one page guides in the manual, but I think I'm just struggling to figure out what I absolutely *need* to do or not do as the Axis.. or any general tips would be really useful.

Thanks.



I sent you all my Air directives yesterday for the first turn per our email conversation. 30 some pictures, lol. How did it turn out?

(in reply to therealevan)
Post #: 10
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/28/2021 9:27:11 AM   
Vermin

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/12/2018
Status: offline 		1) So... with air AI enabled in the game options (ticked) and air assist greyed out, I can still set a directive for LBAD to hit say Bucharest. And it will fly that mission for the turn (ie strat bomb it as directed on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday night). Then it seems as if the Directive disappears but in fact it shouldn't run at all.
2) My pilots were getting fat because somehow I had turned of GS. I didn't even realise it. The next turn - 2000+ GS sorties were flown . The Zampolit has been shot.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 11
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/28/2021 5:09:20 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		AI AI air assist won't do anything on the first phase of the first player turn of any game. It wants to use the existing ADs. So even with auto AI assist turned on, you can actually create new ADs in the first player-turn of the game and they won't be changed. Is that what happened in your case?

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All understanding comes after the fact.
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(in reply to Vermin)
Post #: 12
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/28/2021 5:28:39 PM   
loudscott

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 8/2/2016
Status: offline 		That is what is happening in my case. I have not tested what happens beyond the 1st turn, but I will.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 13
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/30/2021 5:38:01 AM   
Vermin

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/12/2018
Status: offline 		I am unable to replicate the behavior I described above regarding setting a Directive with "Automate Air AI Assist" Game Option ticked. So either it was enabled and I didn't notice or the AIs own strategic bombing routines targeted the city I was going to target anyway. It would be good if all the ingame air directive buttons were greyed out when Automate Air AI Assist" is ticked. Then I couldn't get mixed up!

(in reply to loudscott)
Post #: 14
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/30/2021 7:53:25 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vermin

... It would be good if all the ingame air directive buttons were greyed out when Automate Air AI Assist" is ticked. Then I couldn't get mixed up!


they are, so if you are seeing something different its a bug.

Just checked and it certainly works as intended for my set up

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Post #: 15
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/30/2021 10:42:32 AM   
Vermin

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/12/2018
Status: offline 		Here are my game options screen and map screen - on the latter note the AI button is grey but the Directive buttons are not - and they work - except that the directive doesn't run (I'm not expecting it to).





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Vermin -- 4/30/2021 10:45:56 AM >

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 16
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/30/2021 10:46:27 AM   
Vermin

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/12/2018
Status: offline 		and here is the map screen.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Vermin -- 4/30/2021 10:47:14 AM >

(in reply to Vermin)
Post #: 17
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/30/2021 10:51:55 AM   
Vermin

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/12/2018
Status: offline 		Here I have set a Directive for the Rumanian Air Command to Strat bomb some lace in Russia.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Vermin -- 4/30/2021 10:52:38 AM >

(in reply to Vermin)
Post #: 18
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/30/2021 11:14:35 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		you can set what you like, but the AI will simply impose its own choices when you press F12.

going back to my post above, the manual AI-assist button is greyed out - as it should be for the set up you've chosen

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Post #: 19
RE: Struggling with new Air Combat system - 4/30/2021 11:18:58 AM   
Vermin

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 6/12/2018
Status: offline 		Yes to both - but it would be better if all the Directive buttons were greyed out too when Automate AIR AI is ticked.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 20
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