First Impressions

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

First Impressions

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Warplan Pacific >> First Impressions

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

First Impressions - 4/29/2021 11:24:07 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

Greetings,

Dropping a message - as I know these games always come out limping, and by the looks the game has hardly been adequately tested - at least from my perspective.

1) The Economics are not "there" as incentive.
Japan fought a war to ensure resources and their flowing.
They simply do not flow.
The oil is not enough.
To conquer a City or an Iron Ore location nets 1, 3 or maybe 6 production points a turn.
The difference is abysmal.
Strategic Resources are worth 1%. Maybe for the Rich USA it's something. For Japan, not really.

Oil - to put it simple, Japan ran out of oil at February '42. (I really feel playtesters have not tested jackshit).
That by keeping the main fleet in port and using some air squadrons WHEN the time allowed.

That means with half of Japan airforce or less (since CVs were not used past Pearl Harbour) and some Transport around, Japan exhausted its strategic oil reserves!

To seize some Oil such as Tarakan is useless before NEI falls. You do not get it (I suspect a bug there). So til the NEI falls Japan only gain 7+2+3 oil a turn (and pays 25 of Unkeep - so you 'bleed' 15 fuel a turn for maintenance, assuming your convoys shipping supply and all) ...

FIXes:
City Income remains flat on Conquest.
Iron Ore remains flat on Conquest.
Thailand is considered Owned by Japan and not Conquest.
Extra Suggestion:
Radical Change in 'Strategic Resources' - and ulterior expansion in Strategic Hexes, the ownership of which adds safety / morale / whatnot for extra production. (Production is more tangible than sheer Vps).

2) Logistics - the ISSUE!

I've played Japan only.
Opening the screen I see ... Japan has only 300 Logistic Point at avail!

It screams 'Oh boy you're already maxed out'.
For who does not know, Logistics are what allows you to field more units.
An Army is 30 point, a Fighter Unit is 60, a Division 10, etcetera.

But let's not forget, Japan has a production queue of things that ... are not computed yet. Once you get your first Air Unit out of there, dang - your logistic free points are down to 240!

Japan will spare some logistic points by mass-garrisoning units in islands later on but they're pretty much 'done'.

They cannot have grand velleities of expanding some more, neither some grand flexibility to tailor their forces (barring mass disbanding or atrocious losses early on).

This accrues the first point. There is not only a limit in your economics, but even if you were to have proper economics (that should drive your conquests and not to alter your economical gains by 10% or so)

Presently there is the pure feeling that there is no need to expand much further the historical perimeter or the like, Japan won't anyhow have extra troops to man adequately their stuff.

FIX:
Raise the Logistic cap of Japan. May be tied to events / conquest / another trigger to spur aggressiveness.

Edit: Checked '42 Scenario. Funnily enough there the Logistic Cap of Japan is 3300, vs 2600 of the '41 scenario.

3) Cheesy Invasions

This may be intended, but I feel it's somehow gamey.

Anything that is not in garrison mode can invade. Even a Division that has only 1 or 2 Strength.
That will suck off the Amphibious poor only the matching strength of the invading unit.

Once one learns the game and knows in which location there are enemy forces and in which there are not ... it will become quite easy to abuse the mechanic.

FIX:
Minimum Amphibious cost (5 maybe?) or Minimum Strength required to ivnade.

Possible BUG:
It is far from clear which hexes can have invasions - the Solomons are a pain in that place to see where one can invade or not. Islands of Admiralty too seem to require a marine hop from Rabaul there, as I failed to invade them from sea.

4) Force Z

This is just a pet peeve than else. They start in Singapore, and the Japs lose a bazillion of planes there and sometimes maybe sink one of the two ships.

I personally think it's better to not have the Repulse and Prince of Wales at all (assuming they get sunk and that's it!) than to have them persistently around!

5) Anti-Tank Japanese Infantry???

For the love of God, turn all Japanese infantry Assault.

Some units have a technology Japan does not even possess (ie Anti-Tank '42 when they have '39 only as tech)

Then no practiced player will just stick to Anti Tank troops and will convert them to Assault (The benefit of having a technology will massive outweight the 'anti tank' '39.).

It will be just a massive headache for any Turn One of any game, to track down all these units and issue them to switch upgrade path. Lots of undesired Micromanagement shoved down to throat of a player without a real reason.

< Message edited by Cohen_slith -- 4/30/2021 1:20:27 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: First Impressions - 4/29/2021 11:57:41 PM

Blond_Knight

Posts: 1031
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline

I just ran through the Okinawa 1945 scenario as the Japanese and was disappointed to discover the Allies did not attack. At all. I held the Maginot line in the South and held it until the scenario declared I had won a Major Victory.

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 2

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 12:22:19 AM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

That I tried myself and noticed the USA gets easily stalled. But I assume it's a tutorial scenario to be played as USA where the AI just takes the beating as Japanese.

(in reply to Blond_Knight)

Post #: 3

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 1:20:05 AM

gwgardner

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline

I was a playtester and I can assure you we tested Japanese logistics, oil, etc.

Japan MUST take all oil resources and must ensure that the convoy lanes are open, to get that oil to the homeland. Check the convoy lanes, see how much is being transported each turn, then look for any problems if not all of it is getting through. Japan has to husband oil stocks, but won't stymied by lack of it until very late in the war, if at all - depending of course what it succeeds in.

Logistics points are accrued each turn. Once again, Japan must be wise in its spending but can certainly achieve historical building through the war.

Use the 'z' key to see available invasion beaches, once you have units in the area. As for which units can do amphibious assaults, that's limited by available transports, enemy interdiction, necessity for quickly taking a port.

I think if you play through a game you'll find most of your issues resolved. Playtesters didn't just look for mechanics bugs, we played the game through, all the scenarios, many times. Each playtester, as I recall, when first playing as Japan, ran into oil management problems. It requires careful attention to terrain, ports, convoy lanes, and so on.

With regard to the Okinawa scenario and lack of AI action, I always advise players to give the AI supply bonuses especially. It generally is more aggressive that way.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 4/30/2021 1:50:24 AM >

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 4

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 2:30:38 AM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I was a playtester and I can assure you we tested Japanese logistics, oil, etc.

Japan MUST take all oil resources and must ensure that the convoy lanes are open, to get that oil to the homeland. Check the convoy lanes, see how much is being transported each turn, then look for any problems if not all of it is getting through. Japan has to husband oil stocks, but won't stymied by lack of it until very late in the war, if at all - depending of course what it succeeds in.

Logistics points are accrued each turn. Once again, Japan must be wise in its spending but can certainly achieve historical building through the war.

Use the 'z' key to see available invasion beaches, once you have units in the area. As for which units can do amphibious assaults, that's limited by available transports, enemy interdiction, necessity for quickly taking a port.

I think if you play through a game you'll find most of your issues resolved. Playtesters didn't just look for mechanics bugs, we played the game through, all the scenarios, many times. Each playtester, as I recall, when first playing as Japan, ran into oil management problems. It requires careful attention to terrain, ports, convoy lanes, and so on.

With regard to the Okinawa scenario and lack of AI action, I always advise players to give the AI supply bonuses especially. It generally is more aggressive that way.

Agree. During beta testing as Japan, I never had a problem with oil supply except an occasional blip very early when I didn't move quickly and efficiently enough on the oilfields and then problems later on like mid 44 on due to Allied submarine patrols if I didn't properly prepare, or loss of oil hexes late in the war. You have to aggressively move on the major oil fields, which are clearly shown on the map, or you will definitely be in trouble regarding oil. Play about 3 months against the Japanese AI, and see what they go after first. The Sumatra oilfields in particular are critical, particularly the 30 point oilfield at Palembang at 30,48. And the Borneo oilfields. Take those, as the Japanese AI does, and then defend them, and you have enough oil for most of the war. Don't take them and you have big problems.

And, Cohen_slith ,there is no need for "(I really feel playtesters have not tested jackshit)". This isn't the Steam forums. During beta testing I played full games over and over as the Axis and Allies, reporting the games on the beta forum and noting problems I saw. One thing I noted early was the Japanese AI not covering one or two particular oilfields they could easily have taken, so we took a good look at the Japanese expansion and oilfields.

< Message edited by jwarrenw13 -- 4/30/2021 2:31:37 AM >

(in reply to gwgardner)

Post #: 5

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 12:50:06 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

I am not sure what's the meaning of the parallel with 'Steam forums' - that's just how I feel the game at first.

I can add that as I am plowing through some tests in the '42 scenario (The '41 seems a bit bogus for me due to the Logistic Cap) the mainstream issue of 'lack of purpose' remains.
VPs should be more 'granular' (Something I suggested among other things long ago for Warplan) if VPs are meant to be incentive to 'fight' for a location. (It is either the magic of Victory Point, the factual of Economics, or Strategic Position or the enforcing of Special Rules).

So - Aleutinians are not VPs. Let's rule out the 'Victory Point' bit.
Economics. Let's not joke.
Special Rules? Not there.
Strategic Location? - Potentially could 'spot' an invasion to Japan coming from there.
What is required to spot such operations? Assets that Japan has no logistic for. So no 'Aleutinian campaign'.

This is basic example. But going by the map what induces the Japanese to get into a Guadalcanal? Or The like?

Next bit are Partisans.
It seems the old model of Warplan is still there - each turn partisan explosions anywhere that is not manned.
Inclusive of Birmania! Of Brunei! Of Indochina.
People that were pretty much welcoming the Japanese as 'liberators' from the colonial powers... at least for a good good while!

The entwines with the lack of Logistic to produce troops to man bazillion of ports AND also the railroads because partisans here have more explosive than the regular Chinese and Burmense troops!

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 6

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 1:06:08 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

So you like it then Cohen.

FYI naval groups no longer take up logistics.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 7

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 1:30:41 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

Alvaro you should know me better - I give a game a go, and I try to build constructive criticism (as you may have noted I always propose a 'fix' to what I see wrong).
Plus you implemented already a few of my suggestions for WarPlan in the past.

I am trying - but atm I see some big weak points for the longer run.

PS. In the '42 Scenario there is a 'Supply Source' in Sumatra that I do not believe belongs there anymore since it works for Japan. (And probably will work as endless supply for the Allies too if they were to land there). -- Also Japan Para in Sumatra has 10 Strenght and not 20.

< Message edited by Cohen_slith -- 4/30/2021 1:31:12 PM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 8

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 1:53:28 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

I'm just bustin' ya balls. Thanks I'll look into the 42 scenario.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 9

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 2:02:46 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

Ok that Sumatra supply source is only for the Allies not for the Japanese.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 10

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 2:16:35 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

I think in the '42 scenario it should not be there - it's like something for the Dutch? But otherwise a late invasion in '43 or so it means the Allies have a supreme non interdictable port in Sumatra.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 11

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 4:48:52 PM

Grimnirsson

Posts: 132
Joined: 12/25/2011
Status: offline

quote:

This isn't the Steam forums.

+1

_____________________________

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 12

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 5:50:56 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

I am not sure what's the meaning of the parallel with 'Steam forums' - that's just how I feel the game at first.

I can add that as I am plowing through some tests in the '42 scenario (The '41 seems a bit bogus for me due to the Logistic Cap) the mainstream issue of 'lack of purpose' remains.
VPs should be more 'granular' (Something I suggested among other things long ago for Warplan) if VPs are meant to be incentive to 'fight' for a location. (It is either the magic of Victory Point, the factual of Economics, or Strategic Position or the enforcing of Special Rules).

So - Aleutinians are not VPs. Let's rule out the 'Victory Point' bit.
Economics. Let's not joke.
Special Rules? Not there.
Strategic Location? - Potentially could 'spot' an invasion to Japan coming from there.
What is required to spot such operations? Assets that Japan has no logistic for. So no 'Aleutinian campaign'.

This is basic example. But going by the map what induces the Japanese to get into a Guadalcanal? Or The like?

Next bit are Partisans.
It seems the old model of Warplan is still there - each turn partisan explosions anywhere that is not manned.
Inclusive of Birmania! Of Brunei! Of Indochina.
People that were pretty much welcoming the Japanese as 'liberators' from the colonial powers... at least for a good good while!

The entwines with the lack of Logistic to produce troops to man bazillion of ports AND also the railroads because partisans here have more explosive than the regular Chinese and Burmense troops!

A few points.

1. Saying playtesters didn't test jackshit is a personal attack on playtesters including me, not a criticism of the game. That is generally not acceptable on the Matrix Forums. It is something you would more likely see on Steam.
That aside, here are some replies to the points your made.

2. The Aleutians. I've wondered myself whether a VP hex is justified at maybe Dutch Harbor. Historians disagree on whether the Japanese Aleutians campaign was a diversion or a defensive move. I could see it either way, and could see putting a VP hex there.

3. Guadalcanal. It is a great jumpoff place for further Japanese advances in the Solomon, perhaps even to the VP hex in New Caledonia and even Fiji. It also serves well as a buffer defending Rabaul. In either case, putting an air unit there helps control the area. For the Allies, Guadalcanal is a great opportunity to stop a potential Japanese advance and with an air unit start wresting control of the Solomons from the Japanese. It doesn't have to be Guadalcanal, but Guadalcanal is located somewhat equidistant between Rabaul and New Caledonia and has a 3 point port. An added bonus for the US is that Guadalcanal and all the Solomons islands are initially UK owned. You don't have to have landing craft to take it if the Japanese haven't gotten there first. Which leads me to one more point. As the US, build extra transports early. Don't rely on the programmed builds. They aren't enough. You won't get those extra transports earlier than the programmed builds, but they will come in very handy. Also build landing craft and oilers and supply trucks.

4. Partisans. I've noted the AI doesn't worry about partisans, so I'm not sure they cause much harm. Playing as the Axis, I always garrison a couple of railroads in China, which doesn't take very many divisions if you stretch them as thin as the rules allow. That greatly cuts down on partisan activity in China. As for partisan activity in other places, there was anti-Japanese partisan activity in northern Borneo, Sumatra, Java, Indochina, Burma, and even Thailand, the Seri Thai. Some of this was led by Chinese living in those countries and some by independence-minded native people. Sometimes this was assisted by Allied forces. So I'm not sure Alvaro has it wrong with the partisan activity you note.

5. I've learned Alvaro welcomes constructive criticism. He listened to his jackshit beta testers and I know he listens to customers.

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 13

RE: First Impressions - 4/30/2021 6:15:59 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

Agreed, that "jacksh*t" comment can come across as a personal attack. First impressions and constructive criticism are great and welcome, but comments like that are unhelpful and contrary to forum rules. Please keep your feedback civil and it will be read and taken on board.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/30/2021 6:16:19 PM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 14

RE: First Impressions - 5/1/2021 6:57:00 PM

Ogre2

Posts: 3
Joined: 11/24/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Greetings,

Dropping a message - as I know these games always come out limping, and by the looks the game has hardly been adequately tested - at least from my perspective.

1) The Economics are not "there" as incentive.
Japan fought a war to ensure resources and their flowing.
They simply do not flow.
The oil is not enough.
To conquer a City or an Iron Ore location nets 1, 3 or maybe 6 production points a turn.
The difference is abysmal.
Strategic Resources are worth 1%. Maybe for the Rich USA it's something. For Japan, not really.

Oil - to put it simple, Japan ran out of oil at February '42. (I really feel playtesters have not tested jackshit).
That by keeping the main fleet in port and using some air squadrons WHEN the time allowed.

That means with half of Japan airforce or less (since CVs were not used past Pearl Harbour) and some Transport around, Japan exhausted its strategic oil reserves!

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I was a playtester and I can assure you we tested Japanese logistics, oil, etc.

Japan MUST take all oil resources and must ensure that the convoy lanes are open, to get that oil to the homeland. Check the convoy lanes, see how much is being transported each turn, then look for any problems if not all of it is getting through. Japan has to husband oil stocks, but won't stymied by lack of it until very late in the war, if at all - depending of course what it succeeds in.

Cool. Sounds like the EXACT predicament Japan was in during this war. And it sounds like you gotta know how to work it to...well...make it work. That has all the hallmarks of an excellent design.

(in reply to gwgardner)

Post #: 15