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RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory conditions

 
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RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/13/2021 3:17:51 PM   
eriador08

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 5/25/2017
Status: offline 		As far as i can tell, i agree in most part with your statements about the effect on US morale that the attack on PH plays. But how should the neglecting of PH on Japanese side play out then, if we spin this thought even further. What if Japan concentrated only on south east asia and/or india? I know about the concerns japan had about Phillipines and such, but lets just say, for the sake of the argument, that japan would not anger the US in any way. Should the states even be allowed to enter the war in a normal way over mobilization then?

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 31
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/13/2021 3:32:51 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eriador08

As far as i can tell, i agree in most part with your statements about the effect on US morale that the attack on PH plays. But how should the neglecting of PH on Japanese side play out then, if we spin this thought even further. What if Japan concentrated only on south east asia and/or india? I know about the concerns japan had about Phillipines and such, but lets just say, for the sake of the argument, that japan would not anger the US in any way. Should the states even be allowed to enter the war in a normal way over mobilization then?


True, you make a good point. Talking gaming now (or history for that matter), since the attempt is to coincide. "What if the Japanese" turn their Task Force PH around, and laid of the Philippines.

I got another test case, what if the USS Nimitz went back in time, like Marty McFly?






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 5/7/2021 2:13:44 PM >

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Post #: 32
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/14/2021 11:02:55 AM   
firsteds

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 3/24/2021
Status: offline 		Great thread. I would support a small NM increase for taking / holding Pearl Harbour.

In exchange, you could add a scripted Doolitlle raid choice, similar to the Dakar raid choice. High risk but high NM reward for the US.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 33
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/17/2021 10:29:12 PM   
DrZom

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 1/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eriador08

lets just say, for the sake of the argument, that japan would not anger the US in any way. Should the states even be allowed to enter the war in a normal way over mobilization then?


No. Absolutely not. Elvis's rant is spot on. It was Pearl Harbor and only Pearl Harbor that triggered the American public to go to war.

I have played only two games so far as Axis vs. the AI, and in both of those games the US declared war on the Axis BEFORE Dec. 7 and without Japan taking any aggressive move against the Western holdings. This is absurd.

Absent Japanese aggression against Western interests the only things I can imagine that might have angered Americans enough to enter the war at all (against Germany) might have been release of information about the Holocaust or unrestricted U-Boat warfare resulting in in a high profile incident.

(in reply to eriador08)
Post #: 34
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/18/2021 11:11:07 AM   
eriador08

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 5/25/2017
Status: offline 		In my opinion the US would have found a way into the war sooner or later. After all they were heavily investing materials to Allies and were expanding the naval presence aggressively to secure convoys in the Atlantic in late 41. The moral of the US population in such a case would be another question. But it is alway impossible to say, what would and could have happened. Just my opinion.

But in the end, i think, it is all about balancing and the right victory conditions. And no US intervention in any case would destroy the balance. Maybe the moral hits on Japan for the oil embargo could be increased, to guarantee an aggressive move on their side in the Pacific and other moral objectives could be added, like lately for Britain.

Who played 42 and 43 race to victory also lately? I think those scenarios are perfectly fine in this regard, since you have to invest heavily into the Pacific with Allies, to reach your Victory Conditions.

< Message edited by eriador08 -- 4/18/2021 11:13:30 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/18/2021 4:17:36 PM   
Platoonist


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From: Kila Hana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eriador08

In my opinion the US would have found a way into the war sooner or later. After all they were heavily investing materials to Allies and were expanding the naval presence aggressively to secure convoys in the Atlantic in late 41. The moral of the US population in such a case would be another question. But it is alway impossible to say, what would and could have happened. Just my opinion.




Ironic as it turned out, I think both Japan and the US earnestly sought to avoid a war in the Pacific, but their positions were irreconcilable. The United States wanted Japan out of China. Japan wanted a free hand on the continent. The Japanese government continued to negotiate because Hirohito insisted on it, and because the Japanese leaders knew how dangerous war with the United States would be. The Americans continued to negotiate because they did not want preparations for possible involvement in the European war to be disrupted by a Pacific War, and because it was thought that time was on the side of the United States, which was rapidly rearming and sending B-17 bomber groups to the Philippines in 1941.

There was an almost naive hope on the part of Roosevelt, Churchill, and MacArthur that between bomber reinforcements to Clark Field, moving the US Pacific fleet to Pearl Harbor and sending Force Z to Singapore they could deter Japan from going to war. This was wishful thinking. All it really did was make the concept of a preemptive strike into an even more attractive option to the Japanese.


It has been suggested by some historians that had American negotiations with Japan been handled more adroitly by the Roosevelt administration, Hull's policy of "no confrontation, no withdrawal, and no assent" might have been maintained long enough to avoid war, while leaving Japan so bogged down in China that the threat of Japanese southward expansion would not have materialized before German fortunes began to decline.

On the other hand, China might have collapsed, freeing large Japanese forces for a move south and east and making the task of defeating Japan much harder than it historically was. The freed Japanese forces might also have moved against Russia, making life for the German Wehrmacht much easier.

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Post #: 36
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/18/2021 6:31:09 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1345
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline 		The generation of Americans in the late 1930's had experienced the Great Depression, compliments of the Stock Market crash of the Roaring 20's. The young men of 1930 to 1960 either went to college, only if your family was rich, I'd guess 5% went to college. The rest, worked their family business (alot of agriculture/farming), factories, general labor or enlisted/drafted in the military. The majority of the population was of European decent, and many most recent due to legal immigration via Ellis Island for factory workers. Irish with the Potato Famine & Southern Europeans recent converted to Americanism weren't exactly interested in fighting their former homeland (Italy) nor helping the British (Irish weren't exactly fond of the King/Queen). This is just the men. Women weren't exactly heading to college, I'd guess < 1% went to college back then. Why does this matter? New Euros, broke ass dudes, & regular schmucks weren't exactly concerned about the politics of Europe. Plus, their Dads/Families may have been effected by WW1.

Contrary to public schools & TV commercials. Americans didn't fight in WW2 in Europe, to preserve freedom. We sort of had it (everything is relative) already. Dudes weren't getting blasted in North Africa, Italy, France, Skies over Europe, the Belgium saying "Gee, this will keep me free". Additionally, dudes weren't fighting for the Jews & many others getting systematically murdered in Europe. Nobody knew. Well, I can safely say the common dude had no clue.

Why did I type this? To give more material evidence (opinion if you wish) that Pearl Harbor was "Thee Event"

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Post #: 37
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 4/21/2021 9:13:07 AM   
ForzaA

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/17/2018
Status: offline 		caveat: I'm not going to claim myself to be a particularly good WaW player, I do, however, have a fair bit of experience in game design.

I think the first question you need to answer, before you start thinking of solutions, is why does Japan need their own victory conditions?
Because reading through your posts, it seems like that's not actually what you're after - rather, you want the PTO to be more important to the game.

And if that's the question you want to actually address then I would argue it is NOT addressed by incentivizing a nation that's already focused on the PTO.

Rather, you would need to incentivize the Western Allies to focus more on the Pacific. But, obviously (so as to not affect overall balance), in a way that balances the "extra expenditure" with the "reward".

Resources/convoys?
Units?
unlocked by taking/holding certain locations?
E.g. a Philippine convoy unlocking once you've secure intermediate islands, Mongolian volunteers if Japanese morale drops enough? Chinese armies for the BIC campaign freeing up Indians for North Africa/Europe if you still hold certain Burma location by a certain date?

--

If you do want there to be a way for Japan to "win the war" (either the game throwing a victory screen, or in a way that will make an Allied player concede), then I would argue you would need to fundamentally reduce the chance of Germany/Italy winning the war on the Eastern Front with matching probability.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 38
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/4/2021 4:06:29 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: taffjones


At the moment the Axis throw everything at Russia, and the Allies throw everything at Italy and Germany.

So I agree if either side throws everything into one pot there should be some penalty for them or bonus for the other side.



Is this the case even against the AI?

By the way, this thread could be better without using the slur "Japs." "Japs," "Chinks" (Chinese), and "Guks" (Koreans) are basically the equivalent of the "n- word" for blacks. I am appalled that the moderators think this kind of language is acceptable today.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/4/2021 4:08:22 PM >

(in reply to taffjones)
Post #: 39
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 1:41:09 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1345
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline 		Brother Alcibiades73,

Came back to this thread to post about my Yankee sub strategy I'm using in a current game.

What in the world? Saying Japs is bad? I use the word Jap and I use the word Japanese, quicker to type.
Saying Jap is short for Japanese. 1 syllable verses 3 syllable(s).

It's not a big deal to me, if you want me to use Japanese, I'll type out Japanese, it's only 5 more characters. There a list/link of 2021 words that I shouldn't be typing please? Dude, I haven't been on the Internet Forums in over 10+ years. Check the logs. I'm here to play games, I came here because of Covid-19.

Regards,
-ElvisJJonesRambo






< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 5/7/2021 2:23:21 PM >

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 40
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 1:55:39 PM   
Nami Koshino


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From: Salem, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo


Saying Jap is short for Japanese. 1 syllable verses 3 syllable(s).




As someone of Japanese descent myself I would prefer you use the latter. I've heard the "short term" said with invective enough in life to learn not to like it even in print form.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 41
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:01:24 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nami Koshino


As someone of Japanese descent myself I would prefer you use the latter. I've heard the "short term" said with invective enough in life to learn not to like it even in print form.



I brought this up the last few days in this thread:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5014702

ElvisJjonesRambo is not the only offender here - though he is the most prolific. (He literally uses either the term "Japs" or "Nips" on every thread Japan is involved; and I suspect there are literally over a hundred instances where such terms appear from him alone.)

The most charitable inference I can make is that he was born in an era when racist language was condoned in most communities.

But there is no excuse for the mods to let this fester on for so long, and I encourage you confront them about this, rather than individual posters. It's frankly not even good for business, because the environment on this forum is so toxic that it would keep Asian customers away. (I know I certainly would not have bought the game if I knew that the devs condone racism.)


< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/7/2021 2:03:32 PM >

(in reply to Nami Koshino)
Post #: 42
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:08:21 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades73,

Came back to this thread to post about my Yankee sub strategy I'm using in a current game.

What in the world? Saying Japs is bad? I use the word Jap and I use the word Japanese, quicker to type.
Saying Jap is short for Japanese. 1 syllable verses 3 syllable(s).

It's not a big deal to me, if you want me to use Japanese, I'll type out Japanese, it's only 5 more characters. There a list/link of 2021 words that I shouldn't be typing please? Dude, I haven't been on the Internet Forums in over 10+ years. Check the logs. I'm here to play games, I came here because of Covid-19.

Regards,
-ElvisJJonesRambo




Words take on new connotations and even change their meanings altogether with time. Whereas the term "Jap" may have been simply a common shorthand for Japanese early last century, it is no longer so today. It is clearly a racial slur, not different from, say, the "n-" word to describe blacks. Check any reputable source material. I find it frankly incredible that you did not know this - especially because you use the term "Nips" liberally, too.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 43
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:15:53 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
Status: offline 		By the way, just as the term "Jap" began as a short form for "Japanese," so did the term "Chink" from "Chinese" and "Guk" from "Hanguk" (Korea in its native language). Would you also say that "Chink" and "Guk" are both absent racist undertones?

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 44
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:30:07 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1345
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline 		Brother Alcibiades73,

As stated, I will type out the entire word, Japanese, upon request. In the year 2021, the word for Japanese, is still Japanese. It does not bother me to type out 5 more characters.

Please do not accuse me falsely other words I have not used.

Regards,
-EJR


_____________________________

Without Him, I could do nothing
Without Him, I'd surely fail
Without Him, I would be drifting
Like a ship without a sail

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 45
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:41:38 PM   
wobbleguts

 

Posts: 358
Joined: 5/31/2020
Status: offline 		Wow. This thread is getting interesting!

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 46
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:43:08 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1345
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline 		Brother Alcibiades73,

Are there any other words I use, that are not supposed to be used?

Example: I have used the words Yanks, Yankees, Brits, Scots, Cannuks, Ivan, GI, Joe, Gerry, Aussies, Reds, French, Greeks, Euro, Eastern Euros, etc.

Regards.
-EJR





< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 5/7/2021 2:47:13 PM >

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 47
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:50:58 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades73,

As stated, I will type out the entire word, Japanese, upon request. In the year 2021, the word for Japanese, is still Japanese. It does not bother me to type out 5 more characters.

Please do not accuse me falsely other words I have not used.

Regards,
-EJR



I did not accuse you of using words such as "Chinks" or " Guks." My point is rather to ask whether you find those terms equally acceptable as "Japs" or "Nips," because they, too, are short hands for originally innocuous words, since that is your defense/rationalization for constantly using "Japs" and "Nips."

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/7/2021 2:54:23 PM >

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 48
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:54:41 PM   
wobbleguts

 

Posts: 358
Joined: 5/31/2020
Status: offline 		Good point. Well ElvisJJonesRambo what is your response?

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 49
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 2:59:10 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1345
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline 		Brother Alcibiades,

Thank you for clarifying. Nice to meet you by the way :)

Not sure if you're aware, but in the United States, alot of debates are currently going on with Mascots, the names of sport's teams.

The NFL (National Football League), not to be confused with European Soccer (or football, like Manchester United league) change long time team "Washington Football Team". There a huge list of College Mascots and Professional Mascots in all sports. The NHL (National Hockey League) has Canadian team mascots and nicknames that people sometimes get upset about. Also, the actual design.

Doesn't bother me, might make my old Football, Basketball, Hockey and Baseball cards worth more money to collectors.

Regards,
-Legend


_____________________________

Without Him, I could do nothing
Without Him, I'd surely fail
Without Him, I would be drifting
Like a ship without a sail

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 50
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 3:01:21 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades73,

Are there any other words I use, that are not supposed to be used?

Example: I have used the words Yanks, Yankees, Brits, Scots, Cannuks, Ivan, GI, Joe, Gerry, Aussies, Reds, French, Greeks, Euro, Eastern Euros, etc.

Regards.
-EJR




I am not sure your intent in asking your question here. You could be asking earnestly, or you could be sarcastic.

If you are being earnest: I am just a poster, and my objections were primarily directed toward the forum mods. It is their job to police the forum and tell you what is not permissible. And while they have been egregiously negligent in this respect, I hope things improve. If it does not, then I will seek different avenues for redress.


(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 51
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 3:07:30 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Brother Alcibiades,

Thank you for clarifying. Nice to meet you by the way :)

Not sure if you're aware, but in the United States, alot of debates are currently going on with Mascots, the names of sport's teams.

The NFL (National Football League), not to be confused with European Soccer (or football, like Manchester United league) change long time team "Washington Football Team". There a huge list of College Mascots and Professional Mascots in all sports. The NHL (National Hockey League) has Canadian team mascots and nicknames that people sometimes get upset about. Also, the actual design.

Doesn't bother me, might make my old Football, Basketball, Hockey and Baseball cards worth more money to collectors.

Regards,
-Legend



Yes, and it is telling that even Snyder - the most stubborn and self-absorbed among major team sports owners - finally got rid of the name "Redskins."

Pivoting a bit, look, I am not one of those Leftist politically correct warriors. Quite the opposite. But racism is a serious matter, words do matter, and I have had searing experiences with the very words you so casually bandy around.

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 52
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/7/2021 3:19:40 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1345
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline 		Brother Alcibiades73,

Please let me know any words. I say "Aussies" all the time. I have zero problem typing out Australians, except for the fact I never spell it right & it's not the easy on a QWERTY keyboard. I'm guessing, maybe I should type it out.

Someone from a public event (in person, not here), got mad when I said Russians instead of Soviets when talking about Rocky III. It's a movie from the 1980s.

-Regards,
-EJR

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 53
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/9/2021 12:18:16 PM   
BaggieMania

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 4/12/2020
Status: offline 		While i agree that we should respect our fellow gamers and those who use these forums on a regular basis, I also do not want it personally to become a place where we focus on singular words who can have negative meanings in todays world. When we are mostly, at least in my case, using terms for cultures and nationalites in an era of mankind that was the most destructive we have ever seen on this planet, with rascism and genocide almost the norm. t
Therefore i generally see it as part of the roleplaying part. I know that many of use roleplay while in game, I go from liberating the world from dirty commies and decadent democracies (when playing Axis) to destroying the face of fascism and nazism (when playing the allies) to me that is part of putting ourselves in their shoes from a gaming perspective only. That is different from saying things with the intent to put down or marginalize anyone in todays world. To my best knowledge Elvis just love the roleplay and I am quite certain that does not reflect on how he view people in todays world. To me intent and context is everything otherwise we would suddenly have a truckload of words we can never use because some rednecked hillbillies used it to underline their ignorance. (apologies to the low income groups of people living in the Appalachian mountains ! )

(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
Post #: 54
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/9/2021 2:06:44 PM   
wobbleguts

 

Posts: 358
Joined: 5/31/2020
Status: offline 		I would like to add something to hopefully smooth the waters (and probably make things worse). I am originally from the UK. Growing up there was a word used by skinheads and racists to describe anyone descended from the sub-continent as 'Paki'. A derogatory term of abuse used by scum to intimidate 'immigrants'. Even as a child I knew this was a horrible word of disgust and disdain.

As an adult, I moved to Australia and was astonished to hear this term used by everyone, including the TV,radio and newspapers - especially when their cricket team comes to play. 'Pakis have chosen to bat', 'pakis have a lot of support in the ground' etc. In Australia, the term Paki has no racist connotations at all - it just means a number of Pakistanis. If an Australian says Paki - it ain't racist.

I don't think ElvisJjonesRambo was being racist. I also say 'Japs'. It means a number of Japanese and is easier to type. Not racist at all. If a real racist did start posting here, I don't think they would last long.

And don't forget about the French! They call the English 'roastbif' because we go over and get sun burnt on their beaches. That is a disgusting slur. They should be thankful we go there because the beaches stink of garlic and are covered with rabid snails. And there's no soap in the hotels, just soggy soft cheese. France is a disgusting country and they are racist!







< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 5/9/2021 2:46:48 PM >

(in reply to BaggieMania)
Post #: 55
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/9/2021 2:32:13 PM   
DrZom

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nami Koshino


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo


Saying Jap is short for Japanese. 1 syllable verses 3 syllable(s).




As someone of Japanese descent myself I would prefer you use the latter. I've heard the "short term" said with invective enough in life to learn not to like it even in print form.



Doesn't context matter? I do not mean to be insensitive, but growing up right after the War the term Japs was just the common descriptor for the Japanese people. It did not in itself carry a negative connotation, unless another term was used to modify it. So for me and possibly other old farts like me, within the context of a WW2 game using the term Jap seems appropriate American colloquialism... as does the term Kraut.

No intent to defame the Japanese or the German people.

(in reply to Nami Koshino)
Post #: 56
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/9/2021 2:46:36 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts

I would like to add something to hopefully smooth the waters (and probably make things worse). I am originally from the UK. Growing up there was a word used by skinheads and racists to describe anyone descended from the sub-continent as 'Paki'. A derogatory term of abuse used by scum to intimidate 'immigrants'. Even as a child I knew this was a horrible word of disgust and disdain.

As an adult, I moved to Australia and was astonished to hear this term used by everyone, including the TV,radio and newspapers - especially when their cricket team comes to play. 'Pakis have chosen to bat', 'pakis have a lot of support in the ground' etc. In Australia, the term Paki has no racist connotations at all - it just means a number of Pakistanis. If an Australian says Paki - it ain't racist.

I don't think ElvisJjonesRambo was being racist. I also say 'Japs'. It means a number of Japanese and is easier to type. Not racist at all. If a real racist did start posting here, I don't think they would last long.

And don't forget about the French! They call the English 'roastbif' because we go over and get sun burnt on their beaches. That is a disgusting slur. They should be thankful we go there because the beaches stink of garlic and are covered with rabid snails. And there's no soap in the hotels, just rancid soft cheese. France is a disgusting country and they are racist!



You bring up several points, so let me address each of them apart:

First sure, words - as is the case with everything in life (or almost everything) - must be interpreted in context. Hence, what may appear as a racial slur in one context is not in another. An example par excellence is the use of the "n-" word. It's apparently a term of endearment among blacks, so usually it is okay for blacks to use this term in American discourse - though even this is rapidly changing today. So, there is no disagreement regarding the interpretive principle that context is king.

Second, nonetheless, as I've reiterated many times, the terms "Japs" and "Nips" - while perhaps initially more descriptive than pejorative - are incontestably considered racial slurs in contemporary American context. You can look up just about every reputable reference source for confirmation. Moreover, I have personal experiences where the term was used against me as a racial pejorative; and you've read that experience echoed by another poster on this thread. There should be no debate about "Japs" and "Nips." (Incidentally, I recall that MacArthur banned the use of the term "guks" during the Korean War to not offend local sensibilities. And Dougout Doug was not exactly the most progressive personality at the time. So there is ample evidence that these terms were understood as racial slurs even near the moment of their inception.)

Third, as for the said poster's intent, I have a hard time agreeing with you for at least three reasons. First, unless you have been living with the Aleuts in an igloo, it is difficult for any reasonably well-informed person in the United States not to know the terms "Japs" and "Nips" are racial slurs. Second, the term "Nips" have a particularly more and longer-standing racist undertones than does the term "Japs," and the poster resorts to it often, too. Third, he seems to continue to make a joke of it. For instance, he asks me sardonically whether terms such as "GI Joes" should be prohibited as well. Really? You are equating "GI Joes" and "Japs" or "Nips"? How are we supposed to take his intent in a benign way?



< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/9/2021 3:14:02 PM >

(in reply to wobbleguts)
Post #: 57
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/9/2021 2:52:12 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DrZom


Doesn't context matter? I do not mean to be insensitive, but growing up right after the War the term Japs was just the common descriptor for the Japanese people. It did not in itself carry a negative connotation, unless another term was used to modify it. So for me and possibly other old farts like me, within the context of a WW2 game using the term Jap seems appropriate American colloquialism... as does the term Kraut.

No intent to defame the Japanese or the German people.



Yes, this is a legitimate point, and I specifically said elsewhere that I suspect the poster is an older gentleman who grew up in a time where the term "Japs" or "Nips" were more acceptable to utter in American discourse. But should you not endeavor to change with the context?

Let's put up a similar hypothetical: Someone who grew up in the American South in the same period as your formative years would have lived in an environment where the "n-" word was as common in the air as oxygen. Should that person continue to be permitted to post the "n-" word on this forum, simply because he did not mean any harm?

I would safely guess that the moderators of the forum would have immediately acted - unlike the present case. And we know why, and we know why the moderators did not act in the present case.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/9/2021 2:57:21 PM >

(in reply to DrZom)
Post #: 58
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/9/2021 3:02:13 PM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
Status: offline 		Also, please stop posing false equivalences in general. Talk to me when Germans were put in concentration camps en masse in the U.S. as were the Japanese during World War II; talk to me when there is continuing anti-German violence and harassing rhetoric today. Yes, racism is insidious in all forms. But racist rhetoric against threatened racial minorities by the dominant racial majority and the vice versa are not the same. To wax Burkean, context is sovereign. At the risk of sounding like a race warrior that I am not (I edited an infamous conservative newspaper in college), this point should be understood.

< Message edited by Alcibiades73 -- 5/9/2021 3:18:58 PM >

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 59
RE: Old Subject: Japanese need their own victory condi... - 5/9/2021 4:04:23 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


Posts: 1345
Joined: 2/6/2019
Status: offline 		Doctor Alcibiades73,

From your own typings, appears you're a trained, educated, literature man. Congrats. Or should I call you just an Earthling and leave gender out it in the year 2021.
Repeat, it's May 2021.
Come to think of it, would you like to make a stink about the use of the number "2021" to count years and the reasoning behind the integer 2021, when I posted May 2021? Maybe your using a different calendar. Don't the Chinese, Mayans, and Jewish people use a different calendar. Am I racist for using my brain to point out there are different calendars? The romance languages (Spanish as one example) derived from Latin use gender masculine/feminine for their word endings, does that make all peoples using those languages misogynists?

Rather than dredge every negative experience you've had in your life & somehow attach that to me, lets just stick with the here & now.
Using the word "The Japs" instead of "Japanese" seems to bother you. I've already stated, it's no big deal to type out Japanese, it's just 5 more characters and < 1 second to do so. When I go out for food and say "Lets go out for Jap(anese) food, you are still welcome to come along. I'm a nice guy. We could have sushi & drinks. By the way, checking the thread, I posted on my favorite golfer is Hideki Matsuyama. I legally bet 50 American dollars, paid 25 to 1 odds. Am I a secret racist for saying this?

How about you stop giving your Opinion, your Thesis, your Resume, Dissertation, Personal Experience, Interpretation of History, etc. and presenting that as absolute truth.

Back to the here & now. Lets keep this simple. What words can and cannot be typed on a QWERTY board?

Kindly as I can type to you, with respect,
-ElvisJJonesRambo







_____________________________

Without Him, I could do nothing
Without Him, I'd surely fail
Without Him, I would be drifting
Like a ship without a sail

(in reply to Alcibiades73)
Post #: 60
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