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Sub question - 5/15/2021 11:03:56 PM

jcrohio

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I know this has been asked multiple times and I have read all the threads but today I had a situation I'm not sure of. Place group of four USA sub in raider mode in a convoy hex surrounded by water. During Japanese turn got attacked by a cvl and took losses. Ok I thought only land based air could attack ocean going subs but this makes sense.

But on my turn Japanese sub parks close to me in ocean hex. I move a carrier group out in fleet mode adjacent to subs but it does not attack. The two major differences were the sub was not on a convoy lane and I had fleet carriers not CVLs.

Any help would be appreciated.
Jack

Post #: 1

RE: Sub question - 5/15/2021 11:46:17 PM

incbob

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When playing as the Allies I too had had subs attacked by Japanese CVs and have not gotten an answer as to why. By the rules my US subs should not have gotten attacked. Cannot answer that one.

According to the rules if the submarine is in hex that has no land it cannot be attacked. So no matter what your ship was it could not attack the submarine.

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Post #: 2

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 12:06:01 AM

incbob

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Is this what you are talking about.

I am Japan The Sub has not moved. The sub was and still is in Raider mode, but is getting attacked.

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Post #: 3

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 12:12:32 AM

jcrohio

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That situation I could understand as the sub is adjacent to hexes that contain beaches. In my situation the six adjacent hexes contained all water. No beaches or partial land hexes. Six 100% water hexes.

Jack

By the way copied your hints from War Room. Keep them open on second monitor as I play. Other great resource is a series of videos done by a guy. Can't remember his name but started with Warplan Europe and has continued with WP Pacific. They are outstanding.

Just looked him up. boardgamer0100 on YouTube.

< Message edited by jcrohio -- 5/16/2021 12:18:31 AM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 12:16:19 AM

incbob

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You are correct

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Post #: 5

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 1:40:33 AM

AlvaroSousa

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I need a screen shot of the combat log and where the sub is at. I have checked the code now 3x and it is correct.

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Post #: 6

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 3:52:25 PM

ago1000

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It may not be in the code but in the scenario map tile. Locations I have found so far are included in the pic and near Formosa.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 3:58:12 PM

jcrohio

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Here is a screenshot from a saved game from yesterday. I had already move the sub group back to port.

Hope it helps.

Jack

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 8

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 4:18:46 PM

gwgardner

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There are two shades of shallow water, where subs can be attacked: light blue and lighter light blue, for lack of a better descriptor. All those marked are in shallow water.

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Post #: 9

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 4:22:11 PM

ago1000

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Here are other locations that I've found thus far that allow for attacks also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA1tvWjdwrg&ab_channel=WW2Boardgamer0100

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RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 4:57:46 PM

gwgardner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Here are other locations that I've found thus far that allow for attacks also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA1tvWjdwrg&ab_channel=WW2Boardgamer0100

all shallow water

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 5/16/2021 4:58:05 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 5:58:47 PM

ago1000

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I think there is more to it. Like possibly reconnaissance levels at play also. Subs can only be attacked near shore in a non ocean hex. This pic clearly indicates that the sub suffered an attack in an ocean hex (bottom left)[next to a shallow water hex??] . I've searched the manual and cannot find shallow water type hexes hence my confusion.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/16/2021 6:03:43 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 6:02:27 PM

ncc1701e

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Maybe the color of shallow water needs to be made more distinct from deep water.

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Post #: 13

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 6:05:56 PM

ago1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Maybe the color of shallow water needs to be made more distinct from deep water.

Or state "shallow ocean" in the bottom left. I've never heard of a "shallow ocean hex" in game. Is this in the manual somewhere? (ie. I've heard of ocean and non-ocean hexes)

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/16/2021 6:10:02 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 6:11:59 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcrohio
Here is a screenshot from a saved game from yesterday. I had already move the sub group back to port.
Hope it helps.
Jack

This is the one attack that I do not understand.

(in reply to jcrohio)

Post #: 15

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 8:13:30 PM

AlvaroSousa

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A.I. is cheating. I'll try r
Try to replicate.

What version?

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Post #: 16

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 9:44:37 PM

jcrohio

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Most up to date. 1.01? I think I have a save of end of my turn before I hit "End Turn". Not at computer right now but can check later tonight.

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Post #: 17

RE: Sub question - 5/16/2021 11:24:18 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

I think there is more to it. Like possibly reconnaissance levels at play also. Subs can only be attacked near shore in a non ocean hex. This pic clearly indicates that the sub suffered an attack in an ocean hex (bottom left)[next to a shallow water hex??] . I've searched the manual and cannot find shallow water type hexes hence my confusion.

This one I can explain. If you look at the sub and count it as hex 1 then count south 2 and 3. The third hex you come to has a little bit of land. That makes it a beach hex. Subs 1 hex away from a beach can be attacked.

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Post #: 18

RE: Sub question - 5/17/2021 2:39:44 PM

ago1000

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@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

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Post #: 19

RE: Sub question - 5/17/2021 2:47:44 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

Subs can be attacked in an ocean hex if they are 1 hex away from a "beach hex" which is defined, as far as I can tell, any hex that has some water and some land and the land is less than 50%.

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Post #: 20

RE: Sub question - 5/17/2021 5:26:20 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Correct. All 7 hexes around it need to be just water for it not to be attacked.

Subs are very hard to represent in games accurately.

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Post #: 21

RE: Sub question - 5/17/2021 11:25:05 PM

ago1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Correct. All 7 hexes around it need to be just water for it not to be attacked.

Subs are very hard to represent in games accurately.

I think that's the old WPE definition. From incbob and gwgardner there is another type of hex "shallow water" represented by shading on the map in WPP. These hexes serve as boundaries for patrol boats. This makes sense to me that subs would be easier to spot in shallow water. I see the real life application. Shallow water is surrounded by water in all seven hexes from the pics I've included above and by your definition should not be allowed. From the explanations, if the lighter colour blue makes up more than 50% of the hex then subs can be attacked. The slightly darker blue, subs cannot be attacked I'm guessing???

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Post #: 22

RE: Sub question - 5/18/2021 6:14:07 AM

Gerry58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

Why subs can be attacked in shallow waters and not in deep waters?

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Post #: 23

RE: Sub question - 5/18/2021 9:58:54 AM

ago1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry58

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

Why subs can be attacked in shallow waters and not in deep waters?

because they can't dive and hide.

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Post #: 24

RE: Sub question - 5/18/2021 12:51:45 PM

AlvaroSousa

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The lighter colored areas are just for patrol boat ranges and aesthetics. Unless I am getting old and forgot my own rules.

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Post #: 25

RE: Sub question - 5/18/2021 1:41:03 PM

ago1000

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lol. I'm the older one and more forgetful I'd say I'm simply misunderstanding the interpretation of the rule. This reminds me of the interpretation of the hexes surrounding the land unit from preventing partisans. No insult was intended. The rules are the same as Europe but you didn't need to worry about it because the convoy lanes were in deep water so it didn't arise. I think I'm starting to understand what you mean by all hexes need to be surrounded by water. A hex can show water on all sides (aesthetics) but if it's next to a land hex (ie. incbob's beach hex), then one if it's sides is considered to be a non-ocean hex. Making the sub attackable. I may be slow but my work is poor.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/18/2021 1:45:18 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Sub question - 5/18/2021 2:01:49 PM

jcrohio

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Just ran an experiment on submarines. Started up 1941 scenario in hot seat mode, moved the Japanese carrier fleet at Pearl Harbor out the way, and moved the northern sub group at Pearl Harbor one hex south. So the northern sub group was next to two land hexes. The southern sub group was in a lighter colored hex and adjacent to four other lighter colored hexes.

No matter what I tried I could not attack the southern group except with the land based air on Pearl Harbor. Tried carrier air units and surface units adjacent to it. None would attack it. It was completely surrounded by water hexes even though some were lighter colored.

The northern group was a different story. All surface units could attack it as well as the carrier air units. It was adjacent to partial land hexes.

Earlier in this thread Alvaro alluded to the AI cheating. Maybe that is all that is going on.

Jack

< Message edited by jcrohio -- 5/18/2021 2:15:04 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Sub question - 5/18/2021 3:16:42 PM

ago1000

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I did the same and this is what I found. It seems the ocean tile needs to be touching some land , jungle, beach, etc tile independent of what it looks like on the map.(when looking at bottom left of your screen for the type of tile)

Thanks.

A = Attack permissible on sub
L = Land hex (jungle, beach, mountain)

The lines on the edges indicate what side is touching (ie, I used 1 line, 2 lines, 3 lines to differentiate.)

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 5/18/2021 3:19:07 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Sub question - 5/18/2021 5:05:22 PM

Gerry58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry58

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

Why subs can be attacked in shallow waters and not in deep waters?

because they can't dive and hide.