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Ambush? - 5/28/2021 5:49:15 PM

Toby42

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I remember reading something about CV ambushes. I can't find it again in the manual. Can someone give me the page number or fill me in on an ambush?

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RE: Ambush? - 5/28/2021 5:54:45 PM

incbob

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Not sure where it is in the manual, but it is something you have zero control over.

When CVs attack the computer randomly determines if they get an "Ambush" bonus. If they do, they get a bonus to the combat.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/28/2021 9:26:33 PM

Toby42

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

Not sure where it is in the manual, but it is something you have zero control over.

When CVs attack the computer randomly determines if they get an "Ambush" bonus. If they do, they get a bonus to the combat.

I'm not sure I like that. There has to be more to it than a random act?

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RE: Ambush? - 5/28/2021 9:37:58 PM

incbob

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Why shouldn't it be random?
It was completely random in real life.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/28/2021 11:11:52 PM

Toby42

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From what I've read the USA set-up an ambush at Midway?

Ambush definition: a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position.

< Message edited by Toby42 -- 5/28/2021 11:14:37 PM >

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RE: Ambush? - 5/29/2021 12:25:39 AM

Toby42

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I found this in the manual: Ambush�If the random factor of naval combat favors one side or another greatly, the word ambush will appear next to the fleet to indicate they received a favorable result from chance.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/29/2021 11:11:18 AM

AlvaroSousa

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It just means you got REAL lucky so players understand with PT-107 just sank the Akagi and Musashi at the same time with 1 torpedo and not lose their minds.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/29/2021 12:50:58 PM

incbob

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To say the US set an Ambush at Midway is stretching it a lot. Remember this is naval combat, not land or air combat.

The Japanese were unsure where the American fleet was, in South Pacific, at Pearl Harbor, or were they on the West Coast? The Japanese did not know, and thus it was a surprise (game terms ambush) when they were around Midway.

= Even with the "surprise" the Japanese has a plane fly over the US fleet around 6am. It somehow missed them. This would have allowed the Japanese to launch a mass 4 CV attack.
= And if one plane had been launched on time, instead of 30 min late, the Japanese could have launched a 102-108 air plane attack against the Americans before the devastating American attack that took 3 CVs.
= And if one pilot had decided to south instead of north there would have been no devastating American attack to kill 3 Japanese CVs, which would have allowed the Japanese to launch a 4 CV strike against the Americans.
= And even if that one pilot did decide to go north, if not for the quick thinking of his subordinate devastating American attack would have only taken out 2 CVs instead of 3. That means 2 Japanese CVs would have launched an attack instead of 1, most consider that the Yorktown, instead of being damaged by the first attack probably would have been sunk out right.

So you see in this "Ambush" where America had everything, but carrier numbers it was a close run thing.

This is also by the way why I do not mind the RNG of naval combat.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/29/2021 3:28:56 PM

DaShox

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It has been my (limited) experience If I'm going against a 6 CV attack with 6 CV, but split into 3 groups of 2xCV, the 3 groups CV will lose.

Has this been everybody experience? Is this how the game is suppose to work? Mass > maneuver.

When I think of CV ambush, I think of multiple CV groups showing up unexpected. That is part of why the Japanese where surprised at Midway. They were expecting 2 CV and their was a third lurking out there.

< Message edited by DaShox -- 5/29/2021 3:35:02 PM >

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RE: Ambush? - 5/29/2021 4:20:54 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaShox
It has been my (limited) experience If I'm going against a 6 CV attack with 6 CV, but split into 3 groups of 2xCV, the 3 groups CV will lose.
Has this been everybody experience? Is this how the game is suppose to work? Mass > maneuver.
When I think of CV ambush, I think of multiple CV groups showing up unexpected. That is part of why the Japanese where surprised at Midway. They were expecting 2 CV and their was a third lurking out there.

You are incorrect about your comment on Midway. The Japanese did not expect there to be ANY American carriers. Despite this, if not from random chance, they still should have found the American CVs and been able to launch a full attack.

Ambush could be renamed (attack with advantage) which is what the Americans got at Midway.

6 CVs (Japan) versus 2x 3CV (USA) groups. Not sure about the game, but I can address the WW2.

1) Assume all Carrier equal.
2) Assume both sides get to attack.
3) Japan would launch a mass attack on 1 group. At worst one group is destroyed or disabled.
4) Now you have two US groups. What if one of the groups cannot find the Japanese CVs? A single group attack will not do much against the massed CAP. There is not guarantee both groups find the Japanese.
5) Even if both groups do get through mass CAP counts. Sure the Japanese might lose 3 or 4 CVs.

It is so hard to tell because WW2 CV combat was so random. Usually though you wanted your CVs to operate together so that their CAP could be massed. Also, if Japan had not wasted their CVs at Coral Sea and had brought all 6, as she should have, then they would not have lost at Midway. At worst they would have lost their 4 CVs but sunk 2 or even all the American CVs.

The US found it was best to operate the CVs together until there was a group of 4-6 CVs in a task force then greater numbers became detrimental. This is why when they had so many carriers after mid-1944 that had Task Force 58.1, 58.2, and so on.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/29/2021 5:40:49 PM

DaShox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

You are incorrect about your comment on Midway. The Japanese did not expect there to be ANY American carriers.

I disagree. The Japanese did expect Carriers to be at Midway. That was the whole point of the Midway operation. The nuanced question was when the 2 U.S. carriers would arrive at Midway. Of course the Japanese did hoped they would have strategic surprise, but they didn't depend on it and where actively searching for the carriers as they were bombing Midway.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/29/2021 5:49:08 PM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaShox
I disagree. The Japanese did expect Carriers to be at Midway. That was the whole point of the Midway operation. The nuanced question was when the 2 U.S. carriers would arrive at Midway. Of course the Japanese did hoped they would have strategic surprise, but they didn't depend on it and where actively searching for the carriers as they were bombing Midway.

Okay I guess technically you are right. They did expect the American CVs to be there.
After Midway had been invaded and taken.

So yes the Japanese did expect the American CVs. Just the American arrived 7 days early.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/30/2021 1:03:21 AM

DaShox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: incbob

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaShox
I disagree. The Japanese did expect Carriers to be at Midway. That was the whole point of the Midway operation. The nuanced question was when the 2 U.S. carriers would arrive at Midway. Of course the Japanese did hoped they would have strategic surprise, but they didn't depend on it and where actively searching for the carriers as they were bombing Midway.

Okay I guess technically you are right. They did expect the American CVs to be there.
After Midway had been invaded and taken.

So yes the Japanese did expect the American CVs. Just the American arrived 7 days early.

That why I said it was "nuanced". I'm sure Yamamoto hoped they had strategic surprise, but they had to be planning for the worst case scenario of American recon finding them. Yamamoto probably felt good even in the worst case scenario that 4 vs 2 was still good odds. He might have felt less sure if he knew it was 4 vs 3.

Had the Tone's communication been better, or the Japanese submarines arriving on station, or Nagumo decision making been more decisive the Japanese could still have came out on top.

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RE: Ambush? - 5/30/2021 1:49:37 AM

incbob

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaShox

That why I said it was "nuanced". I'm sure Yamamoto hoped they had strategic surprise, but they had to be planning for the worst case scenario of American recon finding them. Yamamoto probably felt good even in the worst case scenario that 4 vs 2 was still good odds. He might have felt less sure if he knew it was 4 vs 3.

Had the Tone's communication been better, or the Japanese submarines arriving on station, or Nagumo decision making been more decisive the Japanese could still have came out on top.

It goes far deeper than that.
Chikuma's float plane actually flew over the US Fleet around 6am. For some unknown reason it did not see the fleet. If it had seen the fleet then Nagumo would have known at before 7am instead of when the Tone finally got their message through.

Also, Nagumo gets a lot of unfair blame. It was Japanese doctrine to launch mass attacks and not half efforts.

Many try to point to Yamaguchi telling Nagumo to "launch an attack immediately," but when you consider that when there was a question of whether or not the Soryu and Hiryu could make the Pearl Harbor attack his idea was to just take them along and abandon, then you can understand why his idea, that went against doctrine, was rejected.

< Message edited by incbob -- 5/30/2021 1:50:49 AM >

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