Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible

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Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 5/31/2021 6:57:54 PM

dduckett

Posts: 208
Joined: 7/26/2018
Status: offline

In moving an artillery unit I noticed I could bombard locations where no units visible that were 'Guerrilla' units. First time I had seen this. Curious if that is the intended behavior (or a bug) since it gives away Guerrilla positions despite my unit being unable to detect them other ways.

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RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/1/2021 8:12:12 AM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dduckett

In moving an artillery unit I noticed I could bombard locations where no units visible that were 'Guerrilla' units. First time I had seen this. Curious if that is the intended behavior (or a bug) since it gives away Guerrilla positions despite my unit being unable to detect them other ways.

The hex is "observed", which means mousing over the hex you would see the guerrilla unit, even though it's not displayed on the map.

It's one of the more dubious design elements in recent version of TOAW that guerrilla units are hidden-but-not hidden: the correct action for the player is to scroll his pointer over every hex in the rear area at the start of every turn to locate the guerrilla units. This isn't fun for anyone so I think either guerrilla units should simply be visible in the hex (provided the hex is at least "observed"), or never visible even if you mouse over the hex, unless the hex is "spotted".

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to dduckett)

Post #: 2

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/1/2021 8:44:06 AM

jmlima

Posts: 782
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

... I think either guerrilla units should simply be visible in the hex (provided the hex is at least "observed"), or never visible even if you mouse over the hex, unless the hex is "spotted".

Seconded. Even a '?' shown on the hex would do.

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 3

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/1/2021 5:53:33 PM

Hellen_slith

Posts: 1990
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

I like it the way it is! :)

(in reply to jmlima)

Post #: 4

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/1/2021 10:37:33 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: dduckett

In moving an artillery unit I noticed I could bombard locations where no units visible that were 'Guerrilla' units. First time I had seen this. Curious if that is the intended behavior (or a bug) since it gives away Guerrilla positions despite my unit being unable to detect them other ways.

The hex is "observed", which means mousing over the hex you would see the guerrilla unit, even though it's not displayed on the map.

It's one of the more dubious design elements in recent version of TOAW that guerrilla units are hidden-but-not hidden: the correct action for the player is to scroll his pointer over every hex in the rear area at the start of every turn to locate the guerrilla units. This isn't fun for anyone so I think either guerrilla units should simply be visible in the hex (provided the hex is at least "observed"), or never visible even if you mouse over the hex, unless the hex is "spotted".

Kind of defeats everything about guerrillas. Makes them pointless.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I�m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn�t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 5

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/1/2021 11:35:48 PM

Hellen_slith

Posts: 1990
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: dduckett

In moving an artillery unit I noticed I could bombard locations where no units visible that were 'Guerrilla' units. First time I had seen this. Curious if that is the intended behavior (or a bug) since it gives away Guerrilla positions despite my unit being unable to detect them other ways.

The hex is "observed", which means mousing over the hex you would see the guerrilla unit, even though it's not displayed on the map.

It's one of the more dubious design elements in recent version of TOAW that guerrilla units are hidden-but-not hidden: the correct action for the player is to scroll his pointer over every hex in the rear area at the start of every turn to locate the guerrilla units. This isn't fun for anyone so I think either guerrilla units should simply be visible in the hex (provided the hex is at least "observed"), or never visible even if you mouse over the hex, unless the hex is "spotted".

Kind of defeats everything about guerrillas. Makes them pointless.

I KNOW, man, in my FitE2 game w/ david, its like, he MUST be mousing over every hex to be able to find my Roving Harrison.

Like I know he really does that, because it took him all that 2 hours to turn his move, and my P Harrison unit .... is ...... oh, I guess he must have missed ol' Rover :)

Yeah, like he gonna do that <rolls eyes> or like the PO does that.

Sure, man. Whatever you say. Do you even PLAY this game?

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 6

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/2/2021 1:47:56 AM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: dduckett

In moving an artillery unit I noticed I could bombard locations where no units visible that were 'Guerrilla' units. First time I had seen this. Curious if that is the intended behavior (or a bug) since it gives away Guerrilla positions despite my unit being unable to detect them other ways.

The hex is "observed", which means mousing over the hex you would see the guerrilla unit, even though it's not displayed on the map.

It's one of the more dubious design elements in recent version of TOAW that guerrilla units are hidden-but-not hidden: the correct action for the player is to scroll his pointer over every hex in the rear area at the start of every turn to locate the guerrilla units. This isn't fun for anyone so I think either guerrilla units should simply be visible in the hex (provided the hex is at least "observed"), or never visible even if you mouse over the hex, unless the hex is "spotted".

Kind of defeats everything about guerrillas. Makes them pointless.

I KNOW, man, in my FitE2 game w/ david, its like, he MUST be mousing over every hex to be able to find my Roving Harrison.

Like I know he really does that, because it took him all that 2 hours to turn his move, and my P Harrison unit .... is ...... oh, I guess he must have missed ol' Rover :)

Yeah, like he gonna do that <rolls eyes> or like the PO does that.

Sure, man. Whatever you say. Do you even PLAY this game?

I have zero idea of what you are talking about. The OP is playing a Vietnam scenario.

_____________________________

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Post #: 7

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/2/2021 8:15:17 AM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

The point is, the game currently rewards the player who has the time and patience to do something extremely boring and time consuming.

Why? Because it sounded like a good feature when it was added to a list in TOAW III. Guerrillas didn't work like this in COW. Technically, guerrillas are just as visible now as they were then- it's just laborious to find them. Either hide them properly, or do away with the notional concealment they have now. It's stupid.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 8

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/2/2021 1:42:14 PM

larryfulkerson

Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline

I concur. Hidden units should be hidden. Visible units should be visible. Not in some kind of weird superposition of both states.

_____________________________

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(in reply to golden delicious)

Post #: 9

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/2/2021 5:15:33 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

Agreed...players shouldn't have to hunt and peck around for "invisible" units. Tedious, time-consuming, poor gameplay.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 10

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/3/2021 10:45:21 AM

Hellen_slith

Posts: 1990
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: dduckett

In moving an artillery unit I noticed I could bombard locations where no units visible that were 'Guerrilla' units. First time I had seen this. Curious if that is the intended behavior (or a bug) since it gives away Guerrilla positions despite my unit being unable to detect them other ways.

The hex is "observed", which means mousing over the hex you would see the guerrilla unit, even though it's not displayed on the map.

It's one of the more dubious design elements in recent version of TOAW that guerrilla units are hidden-but-not hidden: the correct action for the player is to scroll his pointer over every hex in the rear area at the start of every turn to locate the guerrilla units. This isn't fun for anyone so I think either guerrilla units should simply be visible in the hex (provided the hex is at least "observed"), or never visible even if you mouse over the hex, unless the hex is "spotted".

Kind of defeats everything about guerrillas. Makes them pointless.

I KNOW, man, in my FitE2 game w/ david, its like, he MUST be mousing over every hex to be able to find my Roving Harrison.

Like I know he really does that, because it took him all that 2 hours to turn his move, and my P Harrison unit .... is ...... oh, I guess he must have missed ol' Rover :)

Yeah, like he gonna do that <rolls eyes> or like the PO does that.

Sure, man. Whatever you say. Do you even PLAY this game?

I have zero idea of what you are talking about. The OP is playing a Vietnam scenario.

Of course you don't, or you are being deliberately obtuse again.

The principle is the same no matter the scenario. Dig?

BTW, I was looking for that AAR of yours, could not find. <shrug>

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 11

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/3/2021 1:22:25 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Seems to me I'm not the only one who thinks something is amiss with how guerrilla units can be found. And here's a news flash, FitE is not the only scenario that uses guerrillas. But if you think they should stay as they are, fine. Considering how slowly the game is being developed it probably will stay the same. BTW, I don't see you on the beta team. Did you sign up for it? See, crap like that doesn't mean squat.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/3/2021 2:14:30 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 12

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/3/2021 1:48:44 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

On another note. Boonierat went to a lot of trouble to make his series of Vietnam scenarios. This exploit throws all of that effort out the window. I think just making his scenarios work properly would be worth making guerrilla units actually invisible. Not to mention all the other Vietnam scenarios made.
https://sites.google.com/site/vietnamcombatoperations/

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/3/2021 1:51:11 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 13

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/3/2021 2:47:05 PM

golden delicious

Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

On another note. Boonierat went to a lot of trouble to make his series of Vietnam scenarios. This exploit throws all of that effort out the window. I think just making his scenarios work properly would be worth making guerrilla units actually invisible. Not to mention all the other Vietnam scenarios made.
https://sites.google.com/site/vietnamcombatoperations/

You could just have a house rule: "no snooping for guerrillas"

Also, and to touch on another thread, it might be worthwhile to revisit the theatre recon ratings in scenarios like this.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 14

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/3/2021 3:45:03 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

While that might seem like a solution there would be occaisions where simply moving the cursor from one place to another would reveal units. And pretending like you didn't see it wouldn't make you unsee it. Boonierat's scenarios have lots of guerrillas so it would be highly likely to accidently find them.

It doesn't really matter though. I doubt this will be touched on by Bob since he has more then he can handle anyway. A one legged man in a butt kicking contest.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/3/2021 3:46:46 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 15

RE: Bombarding guerrilla unit that is not visible - 6/8/2021 10:15:00 AM

StuccoFresco

Posts: 546
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline

Yeah, this is a really bad way to handle guerrillas.

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 16