RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running!

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RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/10/2021 3:36:42 PM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

I am trying what I can and will continue to try to reduce the times.

However please do keep in mind that before release I debated this and decided NOT to block the large planets and high AI counts. (which especially in combination cause the huge turn times)

My reasoning was that people who really like a faster turn-around would just have to play on small planets or medium planets with less major AIs.

Alas... I could have predicted that people want bigger planets with many major AIs and a fast AI :)

Not mocking anybody here. Just explaining my logic.

So as I said i'll keep trying to nudge out some speed advantages in the coming months, but do not expect something super huge.

best wishes,
Vic

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Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 31

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/10/2021 4:12:54 PM

deMangler

Posts: 227
Joined: 7/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

I am trying what I can and will continue to try to reduce the times.

However please do keep in mind that before release I debated this and decided NOT to block the large planets and high AI counts. (which especially in combination cause the huge turn times)

My reasoning was that people who really like a faster turn-around would just have to play on small planets or medium planets with less major AIs.

Alas... I could have predicted that people want bigger planets with many major AIs and a fast AI :)

Not mocking anybody here. Just explaining my logic.

So as I said i'll keep trying to nudge out some speed advantages in the coming months, but do not expect something super huge.

best wishes,
Vic

I would have done the same. Especially as the world is full of sacrifices to the shallow these days.
Give me huge maps and slow AI vs small maps and fast AI any day. I only play small-normal because I am still learning the game, and I actually love the way each restart is interesting.

< Message edited by deMangler -- 6/10/2021 4:13:21 PM >

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(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 32

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/10/2021 4:24:14 PM

eddieballgame

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline

Vic, whatever you are doing...keep it up.
Your game is superb as is.
Personally, the times per the large planets is not an issue for me & would prefer you spend your valuable 'SE' time on more content...not that it needs it.

(in reply to deMangler)

Post #: 33

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/10/2021 4:52:03 PM

LORDPrometheus

Posts: 131
Joined: 1/8/2018
Status: offline

As much as I think cutting down turn times would be great as many others have stated the design of the game will never allow lightning fast AI turns. There is simply too much complexity for that. I would rather have gradual improvements in logic that lead to improvements in turn times along with new content than have Vic spend months fighting a losing battle and delay new gameplay

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 34

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/10/2021 4:54:48 PM

deMangler

Posts: 227
Joined: 7/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

It's not *so* much an issue if "whatever you tabbed to" is the manual ! (Or even any other SE content...)

As Bleek said, this is about diminishing returns.

You're just never going to get turn times in the minutes in the mid-late game on large worlds with lots of regimes !
You would probably need to have a completely different game, without concentric bonuses nor units being cut off being an issue.
Heck, even games without these features suffer from the same issue : consider Space Empires 5 or Heroes of Might and Magic 5 !

Consider the latest beta patch :

If your turn times were ~10 minutes, now they're ~8 minutes... this is still too long to be waiting for the AI to move without doing anything else !

However, in smaller games I expect a -20% difference to feel much more significant : now instead of ~60 seconds, you're only waiting ~48 !

I think it is time for the Speed Rant to be quoted :)

https://ericlippert.com/2012/12/17/performance-rant/
Particulary part 4 applies here.

I haven't read that for years!
yes!
:)

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(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 35

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/11/2021 7:00:09 AM

zgrssd

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

I am trying what I can and will continue to try to reduce the times.

However please do keep in mind that before release I debated this and decided NOT to block the large planets and high AI counts. (which especially in combination cause the huge turn times)

My reasoning was that people who really like a faster turn-around would just have to play on small planets or medium planets with less major AIs.

Alas... I could have predicted that people want bigger planets with many major AIs and a fast AI :)

Not mocking anybody here. Just explaining my logic.

So as I said i'll keep trying to nudge out some speed advantages in the coming months, but do not expect something super huge.

best wishes,
Vic

If you as a developer add a option to a game, you take on a responsibility for it to work well.
If you make a Space Sim with a Galaxy Size of X Stars, you are responsible for Galaxy Size X to have acceptable turn times.
If you allow Y major regimes on the Planets of size X, you are responsible for those AI to not take too long a time.
Adding Options creates a obligation of performance. The bigger you allow the planets to be, the more AI you allow them to have - the more time you have to invest into performance.

I think you can get out of that - just hide those options behind a checkbox like "Experimental Options". That way everyone that chooses to play that way, knows what he is setting himself up for.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/11/2021 7:02:38 AM >

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 36

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/11/2021 8:10:43 AM

LuckyLooser

Posts: 4
Joined: 1/22/2020
Status: offline

As a developer myself I can ertainly understand your dilemma. If you offer a customer something they always want it to be bigger AND faster AND more complex AND more pretty AND cheaper. ;) If it is any consolation: you can find the exactly same discussion in about any strategy game forum there is.

Nothing you can do about their wishes (which of course each one of them is to a degree understandable)

Only easy way out is to add a warning message when using large planets. E.g. "With large planets turn times can exceed comfortable limits. Please use medium size plaents in case long turn times are an issue for you." which the user has to confirm. Can't blame you for something he chose to accept.

I very much appreciate the approach you chose - I rather have the option to play larger planets (although I never use it because I am turn time sensitive) than not having the option at all. Everybody enjoys the game different ways which is absolutely fine.

Another way out of the dilemma might be to make all last turns reports available for reading in the loading screen so people have something to do in between. 10 minutes pass quickly if you go to the bottom of those reports ;)

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 37

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/12/2021 2:24:41 PM

Uemon

Posts: 112
Joined: 12/11/2020
Status: offline

Everything else aside, i do appreciate any amount of effort and result that speeds the game up. It makes a difference.

(in reply to LuckyLooser)

Post #: 38

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/13/2021 5:44:45 AM

Maerchen

Posts: 348
Joined: 6/16/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline

Regarding turn times:

I would like an estimated turn time during planet generation.

Like: medium size planet: 8min+. Biological life: +5min. Intelligent alien life: +5min. Postapocalypse: each major adds 3 min, each minor adds 1 min.

Medium size planet with alien intelligence, 4 major, 17 minor = 8+5+5+4*3+17= 42 min estimated turn time.

_____________________________

The logistics hell this game is IS the fun part! - Maerchen, 2020

The good thing is, we have all the information in the reports. The bad thing is, we have all the information. Maerchen, 2020

Came for SE. Will stay for SE.

(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 39

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/13/2021 9:07:44 AM

BlueTemplar

Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline

I'm not sure that you understand the difficulty of what you're asking for...

(Though maybe some vague warning would be nice about the options that tend to dramatically increase AI turn times - AFAIK it's mostly larger sized planets and Survival Stress ?)

(in reply to Maerchen)

Post #: 40

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/13/2021 3:04:28 PM

Bleek

Posts: 720
Joined: 10/26/2011
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline

I'm playing the latest beta and turn times are under a minute for me (mid-large 141x56, 52M pop start, 19 zones). Turn 35 currently.

I have never experienced a 5+ minute turn time, but then I don't play the very biggest planet size.

(in reply to BlueTemplar)

Post #: 41

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/14/2021 6:33:18 PM

Uemon

Posts: 112
Joined: 12/11/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bleek

I'm playing the latest beta and turn times are under a minute for me (mid-large 141x56, 52M pop start, 19 zones). Turn 35 currently.

I have never experienced a 5+ minute turn time, but then I don't play the very biggest planet size.

I always play on smallest planets too. Wait until you get to turn 150-200.

(in reply to Bleek)

Post #: 42

RE: Official Shadow Empire poll is up and running! - 6/14/2021 8:31:50 PM

eddieballgame

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bleek

I'm playing the latest beta and turn times are under a minute for me (mid-large 141x56, 52M pop start, 19 zones). Turn 35 currently.

I have never experienced a 5+ minute turn time, but then I don't play the very biggest planet size.

I always play on smallest planets too. Wait until you get to turn 150-200.

I have not played on the largest planets in single player; just small to normal.
The larger planets work better in multiplayer, imho... where this game truly shines.
Fortunately, games on small planets are pretty much over by turn 150...& usually sooner.
Although, with the new Victory % adjustments, that could/should change.

< Message edited by eddieballgame -- 6/14/2021 8:33:40 PM >

(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 43