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Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 4:35:44 PM   
Molon Labe

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/26/2018
Status: offline 		I'm a little over a week into an Allied campaign. One sub, an O19 class, as been involved in at least three surface attacks in which it doesn't fire a shot (neither torpedoes nor guns). It just gets shot up by the AKs it should be taking down. My first thought was that the AKs' guns just outranged the Dutch boat's, but then it happened with an AKL. I checked the specifications and the biggest gun the O19 class has is an 80mm Bofors that appears to have better range than anything on a Japanese AKL. The gun is classed as AA, but I believe it's dual-use as the range is starred with an asterisk, plus I've seen subs attack merchies with their AA guns many times, so I don't think the gun is just ineligible.

So, does anyone have any ideas why this sub captain (it's just the O20 doing this) insists on surfacing inside of enemy gun range, while not firing any weapons of his own? (Sorry if it's been answered before, I attempted a search and found one thread where the problem was mentioned, but not answered.)




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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 4:41:50 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Molon Labe

I'm a little over a week into an Allied campaign. One sub, an O19 class, as been involved in at least three surface attacks in which it doesn't fire a shot (neither torpedoes nor guns). It just gets shot up by the AKs it should be taking down. My first thought was that the AKs' guns just outranged the Dutch boat's, but then it happened with an AKL. I checked the specifications and the biggest gun the O19 class has is an 80mm Bofors that appears to have better range than anything on a Japanese AKL. The gun is classed as AA, but I believe it's dual-use as the range is starred with an asterisk, plus I've seen subs attack merchies with their AA guns many times, so I don't think the gun is just ineligible.

So, does anyone have any ideas why this sub captain (it's just the O20 doing this) insists on surfacing inside of enemy gun range, while not firing any weapons of his own? (Sorry if it's been answered before, I attempted a search and found one thread where the problem was mentioned, but not answered.)




Gun attacks are usually done by skippers with high aggression. O-19 and O-20 are minelaying subs, so they don't have a big gun.

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 4:43:58 PM   
Molon Labe

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/26/2018
Status: offline 		Hmmm, so I should probably remove the skipper from command and stick him in a sub with a bigger gun, and put someone more cautious in this one.

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 4:46:30 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		What are his naval and aggression ratings?

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 4:54:57 PM   
Molon Labe

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

What are his naval and aggression ratings?


Surprisingly low: 54, 39 respectively.





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< Message edited by Molon Labe -- 6/11/2021 4:55:46 PM >

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 5:03:21 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Molon Labe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

What are his naval and aggression ratings?


Surprisingly low: 54, 39 respectively.






With that aggression rating, he should be put ashore.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 5:38:58 PM   
Ian R

 

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From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Molon Labe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

What are his naval and aggression ratings?


Surprisingly low: 54, 39 respectively.






With that aggression rating, he should be put ashore.


Unless you want a sub that will sit quietly and watch movements in and out of a port or suchlike. In which case low aggression - and high naval skill to avoid trouble - is not necessarily a bad thing. 54/39 isn't very impressive, but it might do for sitting off Balikpapan in a short range K boat taking notes.



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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 6:14:11 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Never seen such behavior by Allied subs.

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 6:34:10 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		Hmmm - didn't realize there were subs without a deck gun. Surcouf is rolling over in her grave.

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/11/2021 7:40:04 PM   
Molon Labe

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/26/2018
Status: offline 		Well, between relieving the CO and making sure the sub stays on minelayer duty until the Dutch mines are depleted, hopefully this stupidity will be at an end. Thanks.

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Post #: 10
RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/12/2021 3:30:42 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Molon Labe

Well, between relieving the CO and making sure the sub stays on minelayer duty until the Dutch mines are depleted, hopefully this stupidity will be at an end. Thanks.


That won't take long.

The two O19 boats carry 40 M Mk IID mines each. They start (at sea) with nil on board. You get a pool of 120 mines, and a repl rate of 20, that terminates in 4212. IOW, you get three (one boat) mining missions to start, and then about 6 more through 1942. Mining missions will be infrequent, and the larger K boats can also do them.

The O19s are decent range boats, and their torpedoes actually work in 1942. I would suggest putting some decently naval rated skippers in them and using them, mostly, as attack subs. The best Dutch subs in the longer term are the K-XIV class, which receive radars in 1943. One approach is to give them more cautious skippers* until that 1943 radar upgrade, and in the meantime leave Cdrs M. Aarsen, L. Olmstead, I Van Den Bosch, & F Haag in the officer's mess at Fremantle drinking Bundy and cokes.

Edit: - * The other advantage, apart from not getting sunk before 1943, is that a good leadership rating skipper will train the crew to high experience ratings.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 6/12/2021 3:37:22 AM >

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/12/2021 9:40:13 PM   
dwesolick


Posts: 593
Joined: 6/24/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Really strange. In my PBEM (late Dec 1941) my O20, with the same skipper, has put one torp in a Japanese CL and sunk a large AK carrying fuel.

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"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

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RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/12/2021 9:42:46 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		He will attack, he will just be cautious about doing so. This is a good attitude for late war IJN submarine captains - especially around the USS DE England.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to dwesolick)
Post #: 13
RE: Submarine surface attack without shooting - 6/12/2021 9:46:29 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Molon Labe

Well, between relieving the CO and making sure the sub stays on minelayer duty until the Dutch mines are depleted, hopefully this stupidity will be at an end. Thanks.


You realize this is a GG game ? And "his" games always involve some "chance" or "luck".
Sometimes called "die rolls".

Also weather, line of sight, speed of target and attacker etc. plays a role. PLUS you can have capts of subs flatly decline to shoot at a small target they deem not worthy.
Game will display a message like "Capt of sub XX elects not to launch torps at this target"

Or the AK was not sighted by the sub, it was hidden behind a rain squall or whatever. The sub could only see some muzzle flashes shooting at them but they can not determine the source of the shots. So your C.O. did fine and submerged to safe his boat from a random hit. (which has no radar)

In the next attack you can have better rolls better weather, bad or sleepy IJN escorts and sink a CV

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 6/12/2021 9:56:37 PM >

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