Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII?

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Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/12/2021 12:16:07 AM

Peresvet

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Looking at the unit types and pictures, it looks like it must be a game about WWII. However, from the operational point of view, the game feels much more like WWI.

I believe the biggest difference between the two wars was that there were no fast mechanized troops in WWI. So, even if one succeeds in breaking enemy defense, one couldn't exploit the local success fast enough. The opponent could just take troops from other parts of the front and send them to close the gap, either by foot or by train. There were just no troops capable of exploiting breakthrough faster than the opponent closes the gap. As a result, there were not many encirclements during WWI and the war was just an attrition war, a giant meatgrinder.

On the other hand, WWII introduced mechanized troops capable of moving several times faster than foot infantry. Such formations could quickly exploit successful breakthroughs and form deep encirclements. Moreover, because of high mobility of such troops, the enemy couldn't even know where to prepare the defense: the mechanized troops could easily move the last 100km the last moment before the attack. It was not possible anymore to close the gap by taking infantry from other parts of the front. The foot infantry was not able to retreat out of possible encirclement anymore. It's just too slow compared to mechanized troops closing the pocket. The only reasonable counter-measure to blitzkrieg was to have mobile reserves behind the frontline and use them to counter-attack the mechanized spearhead. As a result, WWII became a much more dynamic war with so many surprise attacks, successful breakthroughs, desperate counter-attacks and mind-blowing encirclements.

Looking at my ATG games, unfortunately, I have to admit that the war in ATG is quite different from WWII. There's no rapid breakthroughs, there's no need to keep significant reserves behind the lines. The best tactic is to commit all the troops to the frontline and take reserves from the frontline when necessary. The best strategy is to let enemy attack you until his army is worn down enough. There's almost no risk that his attacks will result in sudden encirclement and annihilation of your armies.

Of course, this is because in ATG tanks/trucks/halftracks are only marginally faster than infantry. Moreover, when advancing into enemy territory, the tanks/trucks loose even this marginal advantage and become no faster than retreating enemy infantry! Honestly, it doesn't make any sense to me. So, what do you think folks? Does it make sense to you? Do you also think the movement speeds of the units need to be adjusted or are you happy with the current speeds?

PS: I really enjoy the game, especially its logistics and random map generation features, but I feel that the game somewhat lacks operational depth. So far, I played only Classic and New Dawn random games. I don't know if there are any mods/scenarios that make the game less of a meatgrinder and more of a maneuver warfare.

< Message edited by Peresvet -- 6/12/2021 12:26:50 AM >

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/12/2021 10:59:52 PM

ernieschwitz

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I have been reading your post a couple of times, hoping someone else would answer. I am not the most well versed in the random scenarios part of the game. And I do say part of, because there is so much more. To answer the question put forth in the title is to me relatively straight forward: It is neither.

The AI for random games is made with one purpose, that of being challenging. It is best at being that, when the opponent is under constant pressure. Judging from what you have written, I am assuming you have only played against it. Playing a human is a whole different experience. Like most games, they first really shine when played against real life opponents.

That all being said, there are a lot of things about the random games (new dawn and otherwise) that doesn't make sense. Take for instance and compare fighter range (10 hexes) with heavy artillery range (2 hexes). Those planes would have to be very obsolette by world war 2 to have such short ranges, or the artillery is super duper long ranged, beyond what we can do today with real life artillery. I'll put your misgivings about the speed of mobile forces under this heading.

Luckily ATG has a fantastic editor that allows you to mod nearly anything. It is a bit complex, I'll admit, and even I haven't mastered all of it. I am still learning, but that is a positive I think. ATG to me is something that will allow you to form almost any type of scale (except when line of sight is involved) and any era. That means you can play from the start of recorded time, to the space age (I've seen both kinds of mods). I have seen mods that are tactical and strategical in nature. Some people don't buy a game for the mods, but with ATG things should be different. There is no reason why it shouldn't be everything that The Operational Art of War is and more.

So there is my opinon. I hope it is a satisfactory answer, and if not, that someone else can answer it.

< Message edited by ernieschwitz -- 6/13/2021 4:51:05 PM >

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Try this Global WW2 Scenario: GD1938v3

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/13/2021 5:15:07 AM

Twotribes

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The editor allows this game to represent any time period. check the VR game bank for scenarios and if you cant mod your self ask for someone to make something along the lines of what you want, Bombur has a mod that is random game and starts in 1900,

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/13/2021 5:29:48 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peresvet

PS: I really enjoy the game, especially its logistics and random map generation features, but I feel that the game somewhat lacks operational depth. So far, I played only Classic and New Dawn random games. I don't know if there are any mods/scenarios that make the game less of a meatgrinder and more of a maneuver warfare.

Game comes with a number of scenarios, some of them historical WW2. I have to say though, that AI is a disappointment. In Netherlands scenario, I took Netherlands side and totally stonewalled Germany. In random game I'm playing right now, enemy had a continent with coastline in shape of C with capital in center of it (at the bottom of C), and force concentrations at the tips. So I made beachhead near capital and conquered it with little resistance.

What comes to unit mobility, here few tips. Make many small mechanized units (1-5 vehicles each + passengers) instead few big ones. Use few to take and recon enemy territory (use fighters to aid with recon). With that, you can push other mechanized units deeper into enemy territory, and possibly do at least partial encirclement. If you have reinforced your infantry division with armor, make a new unit, and place armor to it along with some infantry (however many armor can carry). Use it to push for extra mile to take a town or whatever else important. Cavalry is effective in securing low mountains, if undefended. Here's a screenshot from my first random game where I have made a partial encirclement with combination of infantry and armour. My units are brown.

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You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/13/2021 7:26:29 PM

ernieschwitz

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quote:

Game comes with a number of scenarios, some of them historical WW2. I have to say though, that AI is a disappointment. In Netherlands scenario, I took Netherlands side and totally stonewalled Germany.

The AI is only as good as programmed, and not surprising (since it has to function in all mod types), it has been made to be a jack of all trades. It is not good at anything in particulary, but reasonable in some. As a mod creator you have a lot of things you can modify to make it better. If I recall correctly the Netherlands scenario was made as a sample scenario by Vic and you can actually read on the forum how it was made. As such I don't think that major AI "surgery" was a priority.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/13/2021 9:25:53 PM

ernieschwitz

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Here are the instructions. Albeit they use the old editor from ATs first iteration.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1605901

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/13/2021 11:01:45 PM

Peresvet

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Thanks for your replies! Indeed, AI is not very clever, so it's possible to encircle it even with foot infantry only. But generally, it is not possible to encircle a human player unless he makes a blunder. Generally, you can rest assured that the enemy during his turn will not be able to advance more than 2 hexes into your territory. You don't need to be prepared for a surprise deep breakthrough. This makes a huge operational difference. Just compare it to WITE2. In WITE2 mechanized troops are about 3 times faster than foot infantry and can go as far as 30 hexes deep into the enemy territory and cut supplies of entire fronts.

Yes, I understand that the game can be modded with the editor. However:
1) I wonder if there is an already existing scenario/mod that does something similar.
2) I don't want to create a game for myself only. I'm interested in playing against humans, not AI.
3) I am not sure I will have bandwidth to advertise such a modification in order to build a community of players.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/14/2021 6:30:26 AM

Twotribes

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Bombur made a random generator that starts in 1900. it is on VR site, It is ok the only real problem is the fuel for blimps isn't there as I recall.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/14/2021 3:09:42 PM

ernieschwitz

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quote:

1) I wonder if there is an already existing scenario/mod that does something similar.

I am not sure about it, but I am working on something that seems to be working sort of like you are describing.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/14/2021 3:58:30 PM

Twotribes

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gd1938 has fast mechanized forces capable of surrounding an unprepared opponent. but the AI sucks on it so you gotta play human. there are the following playable forces...
Allied Nations USA, Great Briton and her possessions. France and China.... Axis Forces Germany Italy and Japan and finally communist Soviet Union.

it starts in Jan 1938 covers the whole globe and each turn is 28 days.

< Message edited by Twotribes -- 6/14/2021 3:59:29 PM >

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/14/2021 4:18:24 PM

ernieschwitz

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I never designed it to be playable by the AI. Frankly with a map that size I am amazed the AI doesn't crash. Also I did state in the manual that it is not designed for AI play, think I actually said it can't be played by the AI.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/15/2021 3:16:16 AM

Peresvet

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I think I should take a closer look at GD1938, it looks pretty interesting. Though, it seems to have the same crippling +10AP movement penalty for newly conquered hexes. Do you know if this penalty can be reduced in editor?

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/15/2021 3:25:48 AM

ernieschwitz

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Yes, yes it can. Just modify rulevar 4.

This is done by going into the editor (duh) and then selecting the SETNG menu, and there choosing the property sheet rulevars, and then going to the relevant one (I don't remember subcategory, probably the one called AP...) and changing this number to what you want.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/15/2021 7:14:13 AM

Twotribes

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there is a researched feat that lowers that

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/19/2021 8:47:48 PM

lion_of_judah

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what? explain further please

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/20/2021 4:38:28 AM

ernieschwitz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

what? explain further please

Explain exactly what further?

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/20/2021 11:39:15 AM

Twotribes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

what? explain further please

if that was to me I believe it is called mobility and is a strategic feat.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/21/2021 3:04:15 AM

Peresvet

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By the way, there is an upcoming release of Combined Arms Operations Series that looks pretty promising in this regard:

quote:

Q) How does CAOS portray mobile warfare?
A) The majority of combat orders double as movement orders so sweeping breakthroughs and blitzkriegs are common against opponents that fail to maintain reserves. Moreover, artillery and air power can suppress Zones of Control and provide windows of opportunity to infiltrate around enemy defenses, or pin advancing hostiles. In summary, CAOS is built to simulate maneuver warfare and it is very punishing to World War One style static attrition.

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/21/2021 3:36:01 AM

lion_of_judah

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the research thing that you were talking about that lowers something....

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/21/2021 4:14:30 AM

ernieschwitz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

the research thing that you were talking about that lowers something....

First, the rulevars are variables you can change to make the game behave differently. For instance you can set what type of road engineers build, or what the penalty for moving into an enemy hex/zone of control is. This is about the latter.

The event is rather simple but the idea is powerful nonetheless. You simply set an event to change the rulevar if certain conditions are met.

This is done by first setting all the rulevars you want to change to the value everybody would have them at, if nothing was changed. If that something changed (a research happened for instance) then you say that the rulevar should change into the value you decided.

For instance, movement penalty for moving into an enemy zone of control. I believe it is said earlier here that it is 10. Well if you research blitzkrieg for instance (like in GD1938v3), then it gets lowered to 0, for that regime (nation). So when that turn is played there are different rules. And when it becomes the other players turns they still have the old rules.

There are many rulevars. Some make great targets for usage of this. Tweber uses it to cap free experience (the experience you can gain, without doing anything in combat) to 10, where it is 40 in stock ATG. In Twebers World at War (WaW) that comes with the game, this can then be raised to 25, if you have better training...

Others make bad targets. For instance I toyed with the interception radius ... trying to see if I could give planes better chances to intercept if the nation in question had radar... Only to realize that the interception radius would be applied to ALL nations, not just those of the country that researched it! Still in two player games, it could be done.

Hope this helps people understand how powerful this editor is :)

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 6/21/2021 8:30:03 PM

lion_of_judah

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Thanks, it helped a bit

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RE: Does ATG simulate WWI or WWII? - 1/22/2022 7:11:16 PM

Bombur

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Also one that starts in 1930 with 1000SFT�s
I think the movement in Bombur mod is more realistic but I didn�t change the AP penalty in enemy territory. Maybe an idea for the upcoming v1.6.

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