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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/6/2021 3:42:27 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
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Status: offline 		Yes is appears that if you do a -20 LC and they have 0 to start...the end up with -20 LC...

That is the issue. IF 0 was the lowest it would work.

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Post #: 31
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/6/2021 5:57:14 PM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Yes is appears that if you do a -20 LC and they have 0 to start...the end up with -20 LC...

That is the issue. IF 0 was the lowest it would work.

Instead of controlling the LCs I think port suppression might be a more elegant way(easier to script) of slowing their progress if that is what you are trying to do. For example, If IJN capture of a port like Rabaul, that opens all ports within a 24(your choice) hex radius to be supplied if captured. Ports of interest that have that orange circle would be the ones I would use as being key strategic ports to supply other ports. So the capture of Rabaul could open the ports in New Guinea and allow the capture of Port Moresby which in turn when captured releases the suppression of other ports. But, the IJN can't go directly to Port Moresby or it would be beyond their supply range. I think you would really have to look at the map, because it should go both ways. So for example, if Port Moresby gets captured by the IJN, the US should need to be in control of Fiji or Sydney to get back into New Guinea.

Just a thought if your trying things.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 6/6/2021 6:00:32 PM >

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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 12:20:56 AM   
FirstPappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Now tell the truth.
Has anyone ever finished a War in the Pacific Admiral Edition game?


No.

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Post #: 33
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 12:43:39 AM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstPappy


quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Now tell the truth.
Has anyone ever finished a War in the Pacific Admiral Edition game?


No.

Nope.

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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 1:08:12 AM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Now tell the truth.
Has anyone ever finished a War in the Pacific Admiral Edition game?



I have, but the splash screen you get at the end informing you of your victory is a bit anti-climatic.




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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 2:11:50 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

I have, but the splash screen you get at the end informing you of your victory is a bit anti-climatic.


Admiral's Edition? How many hours did that take?

And, they should have come to your home and given a parade for perseverance.





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Post #: 36
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 2:42:24 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I finished 2 multiplayer games of WITP-AE (one as Japan, one as US), but i stopped mid 1944.

(Japan under siege by heavy bombers, Philippine captured and japan navy sunk, it looked like a good time to end the game without having to go further. The game was finished to me).
It took 3/4 years IRL.
How many hours ? Difficult to say, a turn was a day, and it could for a quick turn took 20/30 minutes when nothing happened to hours for large battle like midway.

It was really a passionate and fun adventure, but i would not do something like this anymore , i have no more such dedication today to the wargaming hobby.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 6/7/2021 2:46:03 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 3:02:20 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Now tell the truth.
Has anyone ever finished a War in the Pacific Admiral Edition game?


I have competed several games, both PBEM and solo. Once you gat to around May '42. The turns go really fast. But getting to that point takes a bit especially for Japan.

PBEMs took us about 3.5-4 years in RL to complete. The solo games were a lot faster. Maybe 4-6 months?

But is is a game that I will never get tired of as once you know how all the systems work it is a pretty easy game to play, believe it or not lol.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 6/7/2021 3:13:10 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 3:06:54 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

My kneejerk reaction to these threads is: why not try house rules or simple editor changes to test ways to avoid the ruinous situation indicated by the OP? Then report on them, and see if the developer would incorporate them officially?

I don't think the game's ruined.


Maybe I was too harsh, but it is my opinion that the '41 start IS terrible but it does look like there are some changes coming that will address some of the issues which is a good thing

But right now, you cannot get the Allies troops levels to where there are in the May '42 start if you start the game in '41. Explain to me how that does not ruin the game?

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Post #: 39
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 3:23:51 PM   
Bamilus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Now tell the truth.
Has anyone ever finished a War in the Pacific Admiral Edition game?


Playing that game takes longer than the entire war, so no.

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Post #: 40
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/7/2021 10:55:00 PM   
Platoonist


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From: Kila Hana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Admiral's Edition? How many hours did that take?


Hours? I'd have to go by months. Nine months in all against the AI. The global pandemic probably helped in that regard as I was laid-off for three of those months, house-bound without much to do.

Things got sloppy towards the end. With victory obviously in sight, I just started packing troops across the Pacific willy-nilly as fast as I could to capture high VP cities in Honshu. What was left of the AI Imperial Japanese Navy had taken to hiding in port and wasn't much of a threat.






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Post #: 41
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/8/2021 11:48:35 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Japan never thought it could win a clear cut military victory against the US.

...


I think this is the key for the good boardgames is that they give Japan the possibility, albeit remote, of a political victory. You are not playing for military victory but political stale-mate. One of the issues to consider is that the political stale-mate also relied on factors outside the PTO.

Now, if a game gives Japan a clear route to a military victory then, yeah, HoI territory.

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Post #: 42
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/8/2021 12:53:15 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/8/2021 4:52:01 PM   
eskuche

 

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Status: offline 		How long it take matrix to put it together? Sounds like you gave them a patch three weeks ago and can still make changes to it

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Post #: 44
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/8/2021 7:01:05 PM   
FirstPappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

How long it take matrix to put it together? Sounds like you gave them a patch three weeks ago and can still make changes to it

I think someone in an earlier post alluded to the lights were on but nobody home.

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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/8/2021 8:04:55 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Status: offline 		The Amazon server they were using went down. There was a big internet crash today.

Remember that Matrix deals with a ton of developers that need constant attention. Some patch way more than I do. Then there are new games that come out.

They need to patch every game twice... once for Matrix, once for Steam.
Then it is tested by the developer to make sure there aren't any corruptions or screw ups.

It's a long process to ensure things go smoothly and correctly.

The files were given a week ago. Takes a couple weeks as I am part of a queue

< Message edited by AlvaroSousa -- 6/8/2021 8:05:35 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/8/2021 8:06:37 PM   
eskuche

 

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Post #: 47
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/9/2021 2:21:27 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

The Amazon server they were using went down. There was a big internet crash today.


Probably didn't renew their Amazon Prime membership to get two day turn around.

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Post #: 48
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/9/2021 3:30:12 PM   
Nikel

 

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Status: offline 		The second patch is online now.

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Post #: 49
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/11/2021 6:58:41 AM   
Steely Glint


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Status: offline 		Well, since we seem to agree that the game is historically unbalanced in favor of Japan, how do we get this fixed?

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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/11/2021 6:48:38 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steely Glint

Well, since we seem to agree that the game is historically unbalanced in favor of Japan, how do we get this fixed?


Japanese are able to do some things they historically couldn't accomplish during the first six months of the war, but I haven't seen enough AAR's or played the game long enough to know if they can have better than average odds of winning. Things may quickly swing the other way in 43. It takes a lot of games to determine balance.

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Post #: 51
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/14/2021 7:21:40 AM   
Steely Glint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Now tell the truth.
Has anyone ever finished a War in the Pacific Admiral Edition game?


Yes. It was worth it, but I would never do it again.

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Post #: 52
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 12:38:23 AM   
ThunderLizard11

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Japan never thought it could win a clear cut military victory against the US. They only had to last until the US got tired and made peace.

The US does economically overpower the Japanese but the US also had a much larger war going on in Europe.

Japan made a huge number of tactical and strategic mistakes so it is entirely possible they could have out lasted the US with better handling.

So this is a game of can I do better than historical. Almost all WW II games are this type. Just with some a real victory is possible but not always.


Japan should not have attack the US at all but instead have focused on taking out the European's SE Asian colonies. US likely would not have intervened or at least not as aggressively as they did after being attacked. Not sure how this is modeled in game but it's a key strategic pivot point that could have resulted in Japan "winning".

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Post #: 53
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 10:23:21 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Status: offline 		Nice idea, but it requires the Japanese High Command to be a) mind readers and b) not have trust issues.

The problem was that, to take the colonial possessions in SE Asia, the Japanese had to sail past and around the Philippines ... well within range of US Naval and Air Forces and their bases.

Now, if they KNEW the US wouldn't intervene, fine. But since the US had been participating in embargoes against Japan over the Japanese invasion of China, they had to strongly suspect that the US WOULD react ... and NOT react favourably.

And, anyway, they'd have to trust the US to NOT react ... good luck with getting the Jap High Command to do that!

It really doesn't matter whether the US would have reacted, or how they might have reacted, or on what timetable they might have reacted, the Japanese had no option but to plan that they WOULD react ... and that meant they would know that being caught flat footed while their limited shipping and logistic assets were occupied elsewhere AND vulnerable to US intervention was NEVER an option.

Hence the bombing of Pearl and the invasion of the Phillipines.

Phil McGregor

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RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 2:19:53 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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Status: offline 		Well, did a short (surrendered on May 25th) game as Allied against eskuche with house rule not to use Loops.

Mostly demonstrated that the Allies have no way to respond to Japanese advance in South Pacific, and India and Australia. These areas are virtually all taken before the Allies have the ability to move troops to garrison or enough CV's to challenge landings.

Without the Australia Loop it takes the US to long to move troops by sea to have any effect on stopping Australia from being overrun. I can't of course "see" the situation on the Japanese side but based on the movements they never had a problem producing enough oil to keep most of their navy and air active during the first six months or provide enough Landing Craft for any invasions they needed to support or cut off Allied defenses.

First the problem of command sea.

Of course the US doesn't have enough carriers to take on the Japanese fleet head on. Historically they just picked away at the fringes. But in the game there are no maintenance issues or oil shortages for the Japanese. They can produce enough oilers to keep their six CV's continuously at sea. This gives them the ability to gobble up islands in the South Pacific by blockade and unopposed landings. If the US response to break the blockades then the combination of 6 CV's, land based air, and BB's will take it out.

They are able to dominate the air in the South Pacific because of the ease of taking the major Islands (and their VP). All were taken if just a few turns.

The US can't attempt to snip at the edges of the less important islands because they apparently have almost no intel on Japanese movements. Only during the first month or so when the CV's were in Rabual did I have knowledge of there location. For the rest of 42 they disappeared except when they attacked my fleets. I thought the game would favor the US on "knowing" where the enemy is but apparently as long as their CV's stay at sea they are invisible.

This lead to a second major problem. Transporting troops.

By May 1st when the US gets its first transport, the Japanese have taken Naumea and Fiji (by Jan 18th). This gives them air coverage of the South Pacific and bases to support their fleets. Without the Loop the US has to put together either large escort fleets or run the transported unit along the bottom edge of the map. With nothing blocking them it takes 3 turns to get o Sydney. With even minor blocking or threat to intercept it takes 4-5 turns to cross. That means the first reinforcement can't reach Sydney until April 26th or later. The second division reinforcement can't even start until Mar 29th with an arrival around May 25th or later. That is to long for Australian units to hold out.

India probably can hold out by just putting everything to defend Bombay and watch the rest of India be overrun. Every attempt I mad to slow the advance just resulted in the Japanese army size units killing the Indian divisions. They rarely retreated. The problem with this is India is the only UK country capable of producing enough infantry to fight the Japanese. Losing their population bases will take them out of the war for all practical purposes. And, if the Japanese get air bases close enough to the Indian trade routes they can start killing off the UK merchant fleet.

So I suspect the first year of the war under version 2 using no Loops is still badly broken.

Here is a screen shot of the situation in Australia May 10th. I committed the US fleets to try to reverse the situation. That just got the US fleet sunk. The next turn they had enough Landing Craft to make landings along the entire southern coast of Australia. Surrounding Sydney and blockading everything. Only one US division made it to Australia. The rest are stuck in New Zealand. The only thing that actually slows the Japanese down is weather. I guess if there are enough heavy rain turns the Allies might do better.






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Post #: 55
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 3:38:24 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Australia can be saved I think...Just keep a supply source and get a US corp there...Japan will have trouble with that...BUT that is easier said than done with no navy.

India is the one that will not be able to be.

It would take a good 4 turns to get US units there safely...and by then Japan would own all the ports so they would have to invade.

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Post #: 56
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 3:41:11 PM   
CrackingShow

 

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Status: offline 		Why were you not using the fast travel points?

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Post #: 57
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 3:47:48 PM   
stjeand


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Status: offline 		OH you can...but they are being removed so...using that as a house rule makes sense.


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Post #: 58
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 4:00:50 PM   
CrackingShow

 

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Status: offline 		Oh I didn't know it was confirmed they are going bye bye.

HMMMMM not sure how Allies win in that case.

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Post #: 59
RE: Japanese 'winning' is ruining the game - 6/15/2021 8:26:29 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

Posts: 1530
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Status: offline 		It appears the one to Australia will be needed unless something else is done to keep the Japanese from making sea movement from US to Australia look like running a gauntlet. But something will also have to be done to keep the Japanese from using it to raid the West Coast.

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