RE: So, when is the new patch coming out?

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RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 2:05:18 AM

sPzAbt653

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quote:

You lead and we will pitch in with help and suggestions

You are assuming that help and suggestions are welcome?

(in reply to Simon Edmonds)

Post #: 91

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 2:10:49 AM

larryfulkerson

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Speaking of re-writing TOAW in a different language: Alvaro Sousa is THE developer for War Plan Pacific and he wrote WPP using the Unity Game Engine and C# and as far as I know he's the only developer for that game and he has been keeping up with frequent updates and fixes galore. It's my understanding that Unity is a great platform to write games quickly and easily. I've played with it and I haven't yet found something I can't do with it. SOMEBODY might want to look into that.

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Post #: 92

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 3:09:58 AM

Simon Edmonds

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Hey Larry. 76mm and myself had big look into that. We even did all the Catlike Coding Tutorials. Personally I had concerns over how it handled the hexsides. The inability to have rivers on a hexside for me was a deal breaker. That's not to say it couldn't be done in 2D. We didn't find a lot of relevant examples for that though. My thought was that if you are going to do it in 2D (and pseudo 3D) it's a lot simpler to do it in C#.
How have you found hexsides on the games you have seen?

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 93

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 3:43:43 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds
Hey Larry. 76mm and myself had big look into that. We even did all the Catlike Coding Tutorials. Personally I had concerns over how it handled the hexsides. The inability to have rivers on a hexside for me was a deal breaker. That's not to say it couldn't be done in 2D. We didn't find a lot of relevant examples for that though. My thought was that if you are going to do it in 2D (and pseudo 3D) it's a lot simpler to do it in C#.

How have you found hexsides on the games you have seen?

Yeah, I started to say that I was planning on using 2D and as far as I know there's no problem at all in designing your own tiles for the map. And you can do rivers on the hexsides all day long. Or roads, or bridges, etc. Actually I just downloaded the Unity Hub and haven't played with it a whole lot so there's things I'm not aware of and I have yet to actually write any serious C# code but it's not something I can't do. I'd like to hear your impressions of maybe using Unity to re-build a new TOAW and then donate it to Bob. Or something.
Unity:

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 94

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 6:55:00 AM

sithlord_shag

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I was just reading through posts 88, 92, 93 and 94. Surely you guys are jesting? I mean you know, jerking the chain, taking the pi$$, having a lend etc. Its meant to be funny isn't it?

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 95

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 8:06:38 AM

sPzAbt653

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Not really. There is an organization of about 10 guys that are more than interested and willing to contribute to a new Operational Game. The problem has been getting anyone to commit to coding.

Just my opinion and not based on anything other than gut feelings, that TOAW is mired in several layers of Rights that cannot be readily resolved.

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Post #: 96

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 8:33:39 AM

sithlord_shag

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The thrust of the posts I referred to seem to be talking about the existing development with Matrix/TOAW. I didn't take from that a new project except for maybe the last one, 93. I agree that all is not well with the TOAW development. No one seems to be happy about the complexities.

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Post #: 97

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 11:10:47 AM

jmlima

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag

The thrust of the posts I referred to seem to be talking about the existing development with Matrix/TOAW. I didn't take from that a new project except for maybe the last one, 93. I agree that all is not well with the TOAW development. No one seems to be happy about the complexities.

Development? I would be happy to see all known bugs fixed.

(in reply to sithlord_shag)

Post #: 98

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 2:09:56 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima

quote:

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag

The thrust of the posts I referred to seem to be talking about the existing development with Matrix/TOAW. I didn't take from that a new project except for maybe the last one, 93. I agree that all is not well with the TOAW development. No one seems to be happy about the complexities.

Development? I would be happy to see all known bugs fixed.

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Post #: 99

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 2:20:29 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The, now oft repeated, lie that I'm preventing adding coders. Here is the reality: Matrix has total control over that. But look at the situation they're in: If they want to hire a new coding pro, they would have to offer Ralph's royalties to that coder. But, as soon as they do, Ralph will announce that he's "back!", and demand them for himself. That leaves relying on non-pros working for free. You get what you pay for, and there are real risks entrusting the code to people with no stake or commitment to the game.

Volunteers don't get paid. Never once mentioned hiring anyone. Nor did Tamas or Ralph when they said ok to volunteers. More Bob deflection.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
But, as soon as they do, Ralph will announce that he's "back!", and demand them for himself.

Are you worried volunteers will make you look bad? You were a volunteer once. A non pro working for free. Neither you nor Matrix had a problem taking on a volunteer there. More Bob deflection.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
You get what you pay for.

And there is the truth at last. That's why no patches or bug fixes.

Oh wait. It's going to be all Ralph's fault.

You do an okay job Bob for a paid volunteer, er, professional programmer. You are a professional programmer right? You have some good ideas. But I sometimes think you are in over your head and you definately could use some help.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/15/2021 2:26:32 PM >

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Post #: 100

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 2:41:17 PM

sithlord_shag

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Lobster, who from Matrix ok'd volunteers?

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Post #: 101

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 2:47:40 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds

Ok. Lets particularize some details.

Posted on May 25 2006 on Electronic Games
Topic: TOAW 3 - Ralph Trickey Interview
Question: "What aspect of the past six months has been the most difficult battle you�ve had to fight as a coder?"
Answer: The most difficult thing is that the language is an �old� language. Norm Koger did an excellent job of writing TOAW, but I�m having to drop my programming knowledge back about 20 years. I�m hoping to rewrite it in a more friendly language (C++ or C#) over the next X years."

So that in my opinion is the direction Ralph wants to head.

That was achieved years ago. The code is C++.

quote:

Which direction do you want to head Bob?

Can't discuss, but take a look at the Comprehensive Wishlist thread and you'll have an idea.

quote:

I don't mean that in a negative way either. You lead and we will pitch in with help and suggestions for the game and the code. We don't have to see the code. Half of us wouldn't understand it anyway. Just tell us in specific terms what you are trying to achieve. Here is an example.

Situation: Other games have a "line of command" built into them to model the effects of different leaders. It is something TOAW should do.
Mission: To create a "line of command" effect for TOAW.
To create a "line of command" effect for TOAW.
Execution: 1. Code in the effect in a "least effect fashion. 2. Playtest. 3. Make the effect stronger. 4. Playtest. 5. Repeat this process until
a balance is achieved.
Admin & Log: All code will be held by Bob Cross. Playtesters will be selected and provided with additional information as required. Comunication
will be via the forum and pm's. All stakeholders (game owners) will notified of progress and problems via the forum.
Comd & Control: Bob Cross will be in charge of coding with control of who codes what and who sees what code. (compartmentalization)

Assuming this is acceptable; the sort of help and suggestions might be: "What if we add an extra column to the unit table to show a numeric code representing the leader of the formation." "We could have a table for all of the leaders and their strengths with a code for each leader and a value column for each of the strengths they bring to the table" "We could have a form where players could edit the leaders and values for their own scenarios.
And so on. It's like a snow ball rolling down a hill. It's all about communication.

Playtesters are not the bottleneck.

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Post #: 102

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 2:56:01 PM

DD696

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I would be very surprised if Matrix/Slitherine has the power to dictate to a game developer who can and who cannot work on a game project. That would certainly be a very heavy handed approach to game development.

A developer is the one who picks his team - the organization who does the marketing doesn't.

I am sure that all have noticed that there has been no input from Matrix/Slitherine regarding this game for a very long time. The bottleneck is that the developer, Ralph Trickey, is the emperor who has no clothes and will not appear in public or even behind the facade of the internet. Then, as we all know, Bob Cross will not respond to nor answer simple questions about bug fixes, plans for the game and so forth, which renders him to be of little consequence in these matters.

There are plenty of volunteers willing to help with bug fixes and development of this game. However, as we all know, they are not welcome here.

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Post #: 103

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 3:06:11 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Volunteers don't get paid. Never once mentioned hiring anyone. Nor did Tamas or Ralph when they said ok to volunteers. More Bob deflection.

All I did was point out the risks involved. From that you've fabricated this monstrous lie that I'm some sort of roadblock to this vast horde of volunteer coders out there waiting to rescue TOAW. (This, despite the fact that when we called for volunteers for the Commander Task Force, we got zip).

quote:

Are you worried volunteers will make you look bad? You were a volunteer once. A non pro working for free. Neither you nor Matrix had a problem taking on a volunteer there. More Bob deflection.

What I'm worried about has been made clear repeatedly - that the code would be made public.

quote:

And there is the truth at last. That's why no patches or bug fixes.

If you lose 90% of your coding assets you have to expect things to slow down.

quote:

Oh wait. It's going to be all Ralph's fault.

Since he's responsible for 90% of the coding he sure is a suspect.

quote:

You do an okay job Bob for a paid volunteer, er, professional programmer. You are a professional programmer right? You have some good ideas. But I sometimes think you are in over your head and you definately could use some help.

I have a BSEE and a MSEE. So, yes, I am something of a professional. Just not to Ralph's level.

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(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 104

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 3:06:58 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag
Lobster, who from Matrix ok'd volunteers?

He's said about four times now that it was Tamas...

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Post #: 105

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 3:43:18 PM

sithlord_shag

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No thats not entirely clear. The first time Tamas comes up is when Bob mentions Tamas. Lobster than refers to Tamas in 63 where he states that "Tamas had said it would be okay. Tamas approached Ralph about it and Ralph said it would be okay."

Than he basically repeats that again in post 65 and again in 99. But than in post 77 he states "Oh and by the way. I did take it up with Matrix. Was told it was ok to seek qualified volunteers. Ball was in Bob's court. He's still dribbling."

Its that last bit that makes me unsure whether the first three examples are in fact what Lobster refers to in post 77 when he mentions taking it up with Matrix.

You see, where my lack of clarity occurs is where Lobster reports his discussion with Matrix in the first person in post 77. In the other examples where he mentions Tamas its not first person. Hence my confusion.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 106

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 4:04:18 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I have a BSEE and a MSEE. So, yes, I am something of a professional. Just not to Ralph's level.

And yet you don't understand the value of a team. Even if they are unpaid volunteers that are at your level when you became a volunteer. According you past posts it took you some time to 'get up to speed'. Matrix is willing to take a chance on volunteers. Heck, they took a chance on you. But you are not. That is the bottle neck.

If your health became such that you could no longer make progress with TOAW what would you do? No volunteers because they are all software pirates, except for you of course, so then what? Sounds to me like the whole thing would go into the toilet. At least with someone working on it with you there would be someone who knew what was going on. As an added bonus the whole thing would move along at a faster pace.

I have to question whether or not Ralph is the bad guy here or maybe he's just a scape goat because he and Matrix don't see eye to eye on some personal level.

This is like talking to a tree except a tree doesn't have a library of excuses. If someone comes along that can work with you take them up on it. You're not Super Bob.

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Post #: 107

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 4:15:19 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag
No thats not entirely clear.

Personally I think it is pretty clear, even after reading your explanation of why you find it so confusing.

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Post #: 108

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 4:26:09 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

And yet you don't understand the value of a team. Even if they are unpaid volunteers that are at your level when you became a volunteer. According you past posts it took you some time to 'get up to speed'. Matrix is willing to take a chance on volunteers. Heck, they took a chance on you. But you are not. That is the bottle neck.

If your health became such that you could no longer make progress with TOAW what would you do? No volunteers because they are all software pirates, except for you of course, so then what? Sounds to me like the whole thing would go into the toilet. At least with someone working on it with you there would be someone who knew what was going on. As an added bonus the whole thing would move along at a faster pace.

I have to question whether or not Ralph is the bad guy here or maybe he's just a scape goat because he and Matrix don't see eye to eye on some personal level.

This is like talking to a tree except a tree doesn't have a library of excuses. If someone comes along that can work with you take them up on it. You're not Super Bob.

On the basis on one statement from me, that unpaid volunteers are a risk (a true statement), you've fabricated this elaborate lie above on no basis whatsoever. If Matrix wants to take on volunteer coders they can. That's up to them. But, the fact that most of the team ran off on a competing venture, and your taking this internal matter public, they can't have much confidence about such volunteers. Just imagine if one of them turns out like you!

In my opinion, TOAW's best hope is for Matrix to patch things up with Ralph somehow. Since we don't know all the details of that, we can only hope. Meanwhile, I will continue to do my small part as best I can.

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Post #: 109

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 4:34:01 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
But, the fact that most of the team ran off on a competing venture, and your taking this internal matter public, they can't have much confidence about such volunteers. Just imagine if one of them turns out like you!

LOL, you're a real piece of work. You realize that they only reason volunteers even considered an independent project--however fantastical and unlikely--was that they'd concluded that TOAW had reached a complete dead end, to a large extent because you refuse to work with anyone?

And why exactly would any such volunteers be less conscientious and/or reliable that you, who are also (or who started as, whatever) a volunteer?

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Post #: 110

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 4:40:28 PM

sithlord_shag

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Thats nice you advocate for him 76. Everyone needs a good advocate from time to time. Fascinating that you don't perceive the differences between I saw, you saw and they saw. Imagine saying that "I saw him steal it, you saw him steal it and they saw him steal are the same statements. Note the subtle slide in ambiguity as you slide across the spectrum.

The first statement is first hand knowledge of the event and is quite unambiguous. The second statement could also imply first hand knowledge but also imply hearsay.

The issue of whether this matter of volunteers was ok'd by Matrix or not is actually quite important because it forms a key part of the allegation that Bob has somehow stopped their participation.

I find the evasion over this matter quite interesting because I entered this discussion with an open mind. Some particulars as to how Matrix ok'd it is essential to your argument. When, whom and where. You have been put to proof and the outcome of that request not forthcoming.

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Post #: 111

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 4:49:05 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And why exactly would any such volunteers be less conscientious and/or reliable that you, who are also (or who started as, whatever) a volunteer?

You just make this stuff up as you go along, don't you. You have absolutely no inside knowledge. You do not know what you are talking about. And you don't seem to be able to comprehend the written word. Pointless to reply to you.

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Post #: 112

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 5:03:23 PM

nepos2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sithlord_shag

Thats nice you advocate for him 76. Everyone needs a good advocate from time to time. Fascinating that you don't perceive the differences between I saw, you saw and they saw. Imagine saying that "I saw him steal it, you saw him steal it and they saw him steal are the same statements. Note the subtle slide in ambiguity as you slide across the spectrum.

The first statement is first hand knowledge of the event and is quite unambiguous. The second statement could also imply first hand knowledge but also imply hearsay.

The issue of whether this matter of volunteers was ok'd by Matrix or not is actually quite important because it forms a key part of the allegation that Bob has somehow stopped their participation.

I find the evasion over this matter quite interesting because I entered this discussion with an open mind. Some particulars as to how Matrix ok'd it is essential to your argument. When, whom and where. You have been put to proof and the outcome of that request not forthcoming.

Indeed!

And as far as I know, Tamas quit in 2019...

Regards,
Henrik

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Post #: 113

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 5:06:14 PM

sithlord_shag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

And why exactly would any such volunteers be less conscientious and/or reliable that you, who are also (or who started as, whatever) a volunteer?

You just make this stuff up as you go along, don't you. You have absolutely no inside knowledge. You do not know what you are talking about. And you don't seem to be able to comprehend the written word. Pointless to reply to you.

I agree, this thread has become a character assassination of one person on the basis of allegations that are continually shifted, splattered with claimed expertise that does not exist and other so-called evidence.

I think the negativity on here is malignant. The suggestion that Bob's critics could have anything to offer as part of a team of volunteers, working in harmony with him is surely disproved by the depth of hatreds on full display here.

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Post #: 114

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 5:41:08 PM

Zovs

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Some folks personalities are like glue, other like oil and yet others like sandpaper.

Some folks stick to you, some folks gel to you, and some folks make you raw and bleeding.

Its all in the approach and the embrace.

Honey sweetens the pot, and bears don't make honey.

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Post #: 115

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 6:30:38 PM

Lobster

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Deflection is your only defense. Ask for help and you'll get it. Don't ask for help and you won't get it. The last is what you want anyway.

Call people liars, call them snits, tell them they are throwing tantrums. Say they've run off even though you drove them off. Besides, you wouldn't accept them as volunteers anyway. They're thieves and scoundrels and can't be trusted by your own words. No wonder they want nothing to do with you if that's what you think of everyone who might help you on this forum. Says a lot about you. As for me, I could and would never work with someone who can't take personal responsibility and continually blames things on others. Who uses deflection as their defense. Work with you? When pigs fly up my butt.

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Post #: 116

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 6:37:20 PM

Peresvet

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Discussion in this thread kind of implies that there are plenty of programmers willing to volunteer and write code for TOAW. If this is indeed the case, why stay fixated on TOAW and its copyright legacy? Why don't we just cooperate and create an open-source operational game similar to TOAW from scratch?

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Post #: 117

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 6:39:25 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peresvet
Discussion in this thread kind of implies that there are plenty of programmers willing to volunteer and write code for TOAW. If this is indeed the case, why stay fixated on TOAW and its copyright legacy? Why don't we just cooperate and create an open-source operational game similar to TOAW from scratch?

I like that idea.

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Post #: 118

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 6:47:52 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peresvet
Discussion in this thread kind of implies that there are plenty of programmers willing to volunteer and write code for TOAW. If this is indeed the case, why stay fixated on TOAW and its copyright legacy? Why don't we just cooperate and create an open-source operational game similar to TOAW from scratch?

In my experience there are two main stumbling blocks:

1) While there are lots of people willing to contribute by coding particular bits, there is no one willing/able to architect/spec out/design the whole thing, which would require more experience/expertise than most people possess and more time than most people would be willing to commit.

2) Designing a game like this from scratch by committee (which is my understanding of how much open source software is designed) would be an exercise in futility--there are countless design issues to be resolved, beginning with what kind of license would be appropriate...

(in reply to Peresvet)

Post #: 119

RE: So, when is the new patch coming out? - 6/15/2021 8:07:17 PM

Zovs

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Tom's post is spot on. Norm designed this thing all by his lonesome, prob from 1995-1998 when it was first released. He then worked on it from 1998 to 2003 I believe when ACOW was released. I thought he worked on it for TOAW III, but it seems that was Ralph's design. Ralph then worked on it solo till he parted with Matrix.

War games in particular seem to be solo efforts. There are a few exceptions like War in the East/West and the Flashpoint games. But it seems they are all mostly one shot deals by one individual that is an expert programmer.

I am a web developer (more precisely a senior software engineer), I am considered a full stack developer (meaning back and front end), but my skills have lent me to be mostly a front end developer with my current company. I learned C++ way back in the 90's but have mostly switched to Java, but I have been using JavaScript and various frameworks for years.

There are a few games programmed in Java (I believe Desert War, Valor and Victory and possible most from Yobo games), a lot of old war games were programmed in C++, but some of the newer ones are programmed in C#. Personally I think any newer programming language like C# or Java can be used to program a war game. Using something like Unity is also possible (WarPlan). In order to use Unity as your "base" engine you'd need to bone up on Unity and also pay a fee (which I think Al does - Warplan), its not cheap. Using Java, you can create your own engine, but that means at least 1-2 years of getting the engine off the ground, then another 2-3 years to get the game designed. Theoretically you could do both using Java but you'd have to plan out your engine and work on that.

Just to illustrate some issues, I know of a group of guys that have 3 main programmers one of which is the lead and brain child. One worked on the engine ten years or so ago and then went off to work for the government as a contractor making $$$,$$$ a year. The lead continued on solo for 3 or 5 years and then the other fellow joined and two years after that they had their first release.

Now Al (WarPlan) is an exception, he uses Unity and C# and has had 2 games in the last 2 years, but I still think we worked on the engine for at least a year and half prior to Warplan.

So unity cuts down on some of that time.

Rambling thoughts is all...

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Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 120