Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it through the Winter?

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Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it through the Winter?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it through the Winter?

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Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it through ... - 6/18/2021 9:41:20 AM

tumbi1
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I surrounded Moscow at the end of September, and taken west and north Moscow within a week, and the city by the first snow in November. Once Moscow was surrounded, I called a halt across the whole front and 'dug in', turned the assault status of the panzer groups off, and especially around Moscow I quickly created fortified units so the line was about as well fortified as possible. By the blizzard period most units were fortified to a 2-3 level. My supply was solid, and I had depots in all major locations right up to West Moscow. Losses were 400k+, with the Soviets losing 3.3 million.

During the initial snow month before the blizzards started, I attacked Soviet units where ever the odds were good without moving my units and I inflicted an additional 450,000 casualities, thinking spoiling attacks will disrupt their build up and lessen the strength of their attacks.

However, despite all this, I have just gotten to the end of December and lost Moscow already, with the condition of my units being so weak I can see the whole front will need to retreat.

What did I do wrong? Have I worn my units out and should have instead sat static for 6 weeks ahead of the blizzards?

IMO, I think all the Eastern Front simulations lack an important option for the German player, of being able to halt on a given line, not keep attacking into the poor weather period and protect the condition of their army. Yes, the Winter of 1941/2 was severe, but if the Germans were well prepared after 6 weeks of digging in and resting, and been on the defensive, the Winter wouldn't have affected them as badly as it did historically. In this case the affect of Winter is too severe for what I would have thought was a well prepared army.

With WIR, the blizzard period was also bad, but if you prepared well for it you would survive ok.

< Message edited by tumbi1 -- 6/18/2021 9:43:26 AM >

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 6/18/2021 12:07:34 PM

carlkay58
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The winter of 41 is extremely tough against the AI. Its ability to move units around freely allows it to concentrate a large number of attacks in a small area - far more than a human player could. If the AI concentrates on a single portion of your line it will crack unless you have a lot of reserves for that area.

I have not seen anything in the AARs that have anyone able to hold back the AI if it continually attacks the same area. The only AARs I have seen that have Moscow fall in 41 ended in an Axis Sudden Victory every time so I don't think anyone else has been in your situation. I know that the AI usually attacks most Axis players in the south and can usually gain at least six or more hexes in push back in the south along almost the entire line. It has also been seen where the push back has ended up being as much as 20 to 25 hexes in some spots - once again it is because the AI has more flexibility than a human at concentrating at single points along the entire front quickly.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 6/18/2021 12:59:58 PM

tumbi1
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With an axis sudden victory, you would have to capture almost everything, which I would think is almost impossible without setting the game to easier preferences. I ensured I didn't use FOW, so stuck with the defaults. I only went hard for Moscow, and settled for capturing Kharkov in the south, and a line within striking distance of Leningrad in the north, as I was planning from the beginning to stop on an easily defended line. The first game I played I cut off Leningrad, but I was over extended.

Do you have a link to one of these sudden victory AARs? I looked at some AARs, but none with a sudden victory.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 6/18/2021 1:43:53 PM

loki100
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couple of general points.

Since I have a bit of an obsession with the supply system

I've seen a fair few game saves that people have sent me. Given the hard wired issues (the reduction of trucks and trains from June 41 to the end of March 42) and the additional hit to mobility (& thus supply) from deep snow, any axis player holding east of say Borodino-Tula is going to struggle in the winter. In particular you are taking steady attrition losses and its near impossible to bring up enough replacements.

You can set things up better or worse but you'll not avoid the core problem.

Now the good news. Moscow will never again be an NSS, even if the Soviets retake it. So they are drawing off Saratov and places East. That is really going to weaken them as 1942 turns in your favour. Since the Germans rebound fairly quickly in March-April this sets you up well for 1942 and the Sudden Victory points there.

If you fail to win and they regain the initiative, they have a massive problem. It takes some knowledge of the logistics system to push a 6-7m man army over the 1941 borders when its pulling from Moscow. Add on another 20-40 hexes of distance to the NSS and the Red Army is going to be slow moving at best. In effect, you'll have an excellent chance of a clear win at the December 1944 test (when they have to match off your HWM).

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 6/19/2021 12:21:30 AM

tumbi1
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Thanks,

I must admit, by the end of December I was seeing the supply in the West Moscow depot drop off. So the idea then is to withdraw to a shorter line for the Winter. I'll give it a go and see what happens.

Funny, without the central rail hub of Moscow, it should be much more difficult for the AI to move forces around, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 6/19/2021 12:17:10 PM

carlkay58
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If the AI is 110+ then it 'teleports' units around the map without regard to railnets - or even using rail capacity.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/21/2021 5:09:41 PM

OberGeneral
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Teleportation and total disregard for railnets should be eliminated from the game. Totally ahistorical!
This developer mindset that the AI needs to have big advantages in order to put up a descent fight is unrealistic.
I feel the AI should play by the same rules as the human player and may the best side win! Leave the phony AI advantages for
Challenging or Impossible difficulties.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/21/2021 5:57:19 PM

OberGeneral
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I got a Axis Decisive Victory on Turn 29 after the Soviet winter offensive completely failed.
My high VP 809.

Turn 27 front:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by OberGeneral -- 7/25/2021 3:06:58 AM >

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/21/2021 8:29:12 PM

loki100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OberGeneral

...
I feel the AI should play by the same rules as the human player and may the best side win! Leave the phony AI advantages for
Challenging or Impossible difficulties.

well fortunately the advantages only kick in at 110 (ie challenging), so you get your preference and those who want a greater challenge can set it up that way?

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/21/2021 9:10:06 PM

OberGeneral
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My mistake. After seeing the difficulty increase between Easy an Normal I
thought that kicked in for Normal. The campaign that I won was on Easy difficulty.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/22/2021 7:49:13 AM

tumbi1
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Interesting, during a game on normal difficulty against the soviet AI, a number of turns in I set the soviets to human so I could get a look at their side, and I discovered a number of units were being moved by rail and were 'loaded on trains', but nowhere near a rail line!

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/22/2021 12:01:18 PM

loki100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tumbi1

Interesting, during a game on normal difficulty against the soviet AI, a number of turns in I set the soviets to human so I could get a look at their side, and I discovered a number of units were being moved by rail and were 'loaded on trains', but nowhere near a rail line!

can you provide a save? Thats clearly a bug and it would be useful to see what logic the AI was following.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/22/2021 12:34:45 PM

tumbi1
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I'll go looking and will let you know.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/22/2021 2:39:58 PM

loki100
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tumbi1

I'll go looking and will let you know.

thanks if you can find one, make a short report in the tech support forum, Joel will pick it up from there

Roger

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/23/2021 5:26:54 PM

Joel Billings
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tumbi1

Interesting, during a game on normal difficulty against the soviet AI, a number of turns in I set the soviets to human so I could get a look at their side, and I discovered a number of units were being moved by rail and were 'loaded on trains', but nowhere near a rail line!

There was a bad bug that was fixed several versions ago that had the AI putting units in trains in the front line, even when not on rail hexes. Like fighting with both hands tied behind it's back. Hopefully you're not seeing that in recent versions. As Roger said, best to put reports like this in the tech support area if you see something like that so we can be sure to take a look if you've got a save.

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RE: Has anyone captured Moscow in 1941 and held it thro... - 7/27/2021 12:07:30 PM

tumbi1
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I checked another different game I started, and it has also done it, so I have posted a new topic for it in the tech support area as requested.

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