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Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 1:42:29 PM

BigDuke66

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Gentlemen,
as tomorrow we have the 80th anniversary "Operation Barbarossa", what is the best Barbarossa scenario for:
A. Human versus Human
B. Human(German) versus AI(Russian)

At least under CoW it was pretty clear that McBride's DNO was the best for HuH by far, but is that still true for today under TOAWIV?

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 6/21/2021 1:45:28 PM >

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 3:07:22 PM

Hellen_slith

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IMHO

for human v human, FitE1 or FitE2 (FitE1 is less daunting, but heavy favor Soviet I think

for human v Russian PO, either D21 or the Russo-German War. I think there was one before D21, cannot remember name.

DNO: wanting to give that one a go. Can't go wrong with a scene from DM!

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 5:10:12 PM

BigDuke66

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I guess I should have been more precise. Operation Barbarossa is the part that the emphasis should lay on. Sure are FitE and D21 the once if you want to go for the complete East Front show, but Barbarossa isn't the schwerpunkt of these scenarios.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 5:16:23 PM

Zovs

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Larry's B41 sure is a heck of a lot of fun.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 7:51:20 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I guess I should have been more precise. Operation Barbarossa is the part that the emphasis should lay on. Sure are FitE and D21 the once if you want to go for the complete East Front show, but Barbarossa isn't the schwerpunkt of these scenarios.

Hmm..and I was thinking D21.

Well, considering just Barbarossa I'd have to say DNO. Oldie but goodie.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 7:57:03 PM

Zovs

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Oh, yeah forgot about DNO, I have a modified version I have been tweaking and fixing for TOAW IV.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 8:14:17 PM

Lobster

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Nice. Are you going to post it on the new scenario area?

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 9:39:18 PM

BigDuke66

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I remember we had someone some years back "updating" all MB scenario. Updating in so far that they were loaded and saved so that they were playable right away in TOAWIV. At least I have now Version 4.0, while officially 3.7 was afaik the latest.

A tweaked & fixed version would indeed be interesting, but here we have the same problem as back then. Discussion started if it was allowed to modify the scenario without the designers permission. Not sure if the thread was removed, at least I can't find it anymore.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/21/2021 9:58:48 PM

Lobster

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Yes there is something like that. The back of all the printed manuals said the scenarios were the authors property and they had copyrights. Probably still holds true. Forgot about that.

I know the FitE2 guys don't want people messing with their stuff unless they changed their minds. Maybe if you tried to get in touch with the original author and if you can't then do your own thing with it. Then give the original author credit in the briefing.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 8:01:12 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Yes there is something like that. The back of all the printed manuals said the scenarios were the authors property and they had copyrights. Probably still holds true. Forgot about that.

As I recall the original line from the manuals was that any scenario produced using the scenario editor was property of TakeTwo Interactive- with permission given only for personal use.

McBride actually ran afoul of that when he wanted to start charging for his scenarios back in the day. I have a suspicion he'd be vaguely hostile to people modifying his scenarios and then sharing them. As I recall, he tried to stop anyone else hosting them and actually had them removed from Rugged Defense et al.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 9:43:52 AM

Simon Edmonds

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Slightly off topic. Big Duke 66. So many of the scenarios have been updated to that they would work on Toaw III and IV. But not so many have been changed to take advantage of the new game features. Europe Aflame still has a map of 160 x 150 hexes. With all of the increases to events, units, formations and hexmaps imagine what that could be updated to.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 10:11:35 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds

Europe Aflame still has a map of 160 x 150 hexes. With all of the increases to events, units, formations and hexmaps imagine what that could be updated to.

I'm sure it could be turned into an unplayable monster very easily...

The map limits were already 300x300 even in Volume I, but the designers of Europe Aflame chose to make the scenario at 33km/hex (if I recall correctly) and corps level. It's a lot more popular and well-known than a lot of scenarios which cover the European War with a bigger map and more units because it's very playable.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 11:15:39 AM

Zovs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Nice. Are you going to post it on the new scenario area?

Yes, in fact I have updated all those scenarios from that designer, including the word docs, and updated them to use new color schemes for the series.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 11:26:22 AM

Lobster

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Volume 1 says all scenarios are property of Talonsoft. After Volume 1 that is removed. The below is removed in IV but if someone is really protective of their work and has the money I'm quite sure they could make a case of copyright infringement.

However, TOAWIII:
THE ENCLOSED SOFTWARE PROGRAM AND THIS MANUAL ARE COPYRIGHTED. ALL RIGHTS ARE RESERVED. THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER MAY PRINT OR HAVE A PRINT/COPY SHOP MAKE A PRINTOUT AND/OR COPY OF THE MANUAL. MATRIX PUBLISHING, LLC GRANTS THE ORIGINAL PURCHASER OF THIS SOFTWARE PACKAGE THE RIGHT TO USE ONE COPY OF THE SOFTWARE PROGRAM. YOU MAY NOT RENT OR LEASE IT, DISASSEMBLE, DECOMPILE, REVERSE ENGINEER, OR MODIFY THE SOFTWARE IN ANYWAY. ALL EDITORS MAY BE USED TO CREATE SCENARIOS THAT MAY BE FREELY DISTRIBUTED. ALL SCENARIO AUTHORS HOLD THE ULTIMATE RIGHTS TO THEIR DESIGNED SCENARIOS AND MATRIX PUBLISHING, LLC MAKES N OCLAIMS THEREOF. YOU MAY NOT COPY OR DISTRIBUTE COPIES IN ANY MEDIA FORM. ANY PERSONS DOING SO SHALL BE GUILTY OF COPYRIGHT VIOLATION AND SUBjECT TO THE APPROPRIATE CIVIL OR CRIMINAL ACTION AT THE DISCRETION OF THECOPYRIGHT HOLDER.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 6/22/2021 11:30:07 AM >

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 11:27:58 AM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Nice. Are you going to post it on the new scenario area?

Yes, in fact I have updated all those scenarios from that designer, including the word docs, and updated them to use new color schemes for the series.

Going to have to take a look at it then.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 12:17:37 PM

golden delicious

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..

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/22/2021 12:18:00 PM >

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 1:04:55 PM

Lobster

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Has anyone tried playing Barbarossa Tactical? A Silvanski mod of a Piero Falotti scenario.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 2:50:53 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

I'm sure it could be turned into an unplayable monster very easily...

The map limits were already 300x300 even in Volume I, but the designers of Europe Aflame chose to make the scenario at 33km/hex (if I recall correctly) and corps level. It's a lot more popular and well-known than a lot of scenarios which cover the European War with a bigger map and more units because it's very playable.

All true of my Barbarossa scenario, too:

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/soviet-union-1941

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 2:59:38 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

All true of my Barbarossa scenario, too:

https://crossrl1.wixsite.com/my-toaw-site/soviet-union-1941

It's a fun scenario. The thing about this one is that if you're in PBEM you could potentially run through several matches without necessarily getting sick of the thing. I imagine most matches of e.g. DNO end early because one player simply cannot face opening his turns any more.

From memory, vs. PO I find that (unsurprisingly) both sides are more or less a walkover for the human player. You'd want to look at some house rules for the human player to make it more of a challenge.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 6/22/2021 3:00:51 PM >

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 3:43:33 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

From memory, vs. PO I find that (unsurprisingly) both sides are more or less a walkover for the human player. You'd want to look at some house rules for the human player to make it more of a challenge.

For the Soviet PO in particular - too many kluges in the design required for them. But don't overestimate the skill of raw beginners. They need some easy ones.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 4:07:36 PM

BigDuke66

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
McBride actually ran afoul of that when he wanted to start charging for his scenarios back in the day. I have a suspicion he'd be vaguely hostile to people modifying his scenarios and then sharing them. As I recall, he tried to stop anyone else hosting them and actually had them removed from Rugged Defense et al.

That is new too me. When I asked him if he allows me to mod his Case Blue scenario with the intention of fixing some things I got his permission.
Hard to believe that he would have taken legal steps on others unless these would have played a dirty game like removing him from credits or so.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 4:31:05 PM

Lobster

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If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 5:25:52 PM

rhinobones

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

From memory, vs. PO I find that (unsurprisingly) both sides are more or less a walkover for the human player. You'd want to look at some house rules for the human player to make it more of a challenge.

I�ve tried to remedy unbalanced PO games by inserting a TO for the player to add/delete PO formations. Along with liberal use of randomized PO objective tracks it seems to help, but then it�s one of those things you could spend a lifetime in test and adjustment.

Regards

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 6:26:13 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

I�ve tried to remedy unbalanced PO games by inserting a TO for the player to add/delete PO formations. Along with liberal use of randomized PO objective tracks it seems to help, but then it�s one of those things you could spend a lifetime in test and adjustment.

Regards

For this particular scenario I was thinking:
For the Axis: units must have a certain colour status to allow them to attack or move into an enemy-controlled hex
For the Soviets: more complicated, but you'd want to require the player to operate on the offensive for the first x turns.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 6:28:00 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?

Yeah. There was no legal action though- he just asked scenarios to be removed and they were. For a while, he had his own page which was supposed to be the only place to get them, but I think he's lost interest in TOAW some time ago- last I heard from him directly was 2008.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 7:07:14 PM

Zovs

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I just look at things differently. You can't really "copyright" a scenario per see. A game yes, but a scenario, give me a break. It's public domain, and if they abandoned it, then if someone comes along and tidies it up and actually fixes it so it works properly for a new version then more power to them.

Worse case scenario I can just rename them. I did all the upgrading, updating and TOAW IV fixes from the ground up not to mention the tedious hours spent in recoloring the counters and correcting the documentation.

Its a war game, its a scenario. No worries.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/22/2021 9:31:00 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

For this particular scenario I was thinking:
For the Axis: units must have a certain colour status to allow them to attack or move into an enemy-controlled hex
For the Soviets: more complicated, but you'd want to require the player to operate on the offensive for the first x turns.

Neither of those really address the problems the Soviet PO has in it:

Factories need to be judiciously railed east in the nick of time after release via TOs. New Armies arrive as empty shells and are railed from Siberia to the front. The PO needs to hold them back from the front to give them time to disembark and build strength before entering the front lines.

Hard for the PO to handle any of that. I do release a few factories automatically, but not all.

Note that it's important that the scenairo be begun with the PO enabled. If enabled after the start, those factories won't be released, and the German PO will have to handle Soviet Cadres in its rear (something it can't do).

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 6/22/2021 9:59:55 PM >

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/23/2021 7:59:29 AM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I just look at things differently. You can't really "copyright" a scenario per see. A game yes, but a scenario, give me a break. It's public domain, and if they abandoned it, then if someone comes along and tidies it up and actually fixes it so it works properly for a new version then more power to them.

Worse case scenario I can just rename them. I did all the upgrading, updating and TOAW IV fixes from the ground up not to mention the tedious hours spent in recoloring the counters and correcting the documentation.

Its a war game, its a scenario. No worries.

It's not a legal issue but an ethical one. If the designer says no, you can't mod my scenario, then it would seem to be unreasonable to ignore that and then distribute the results.

If, on the other hand, they're uncontactable (which will apply to most designers at this point), then I'd say have at it. Just make sure not to remove their credits from the briefing.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/23/2021 6:09:19 PM

Hellen_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I remember we had someone some years back "updating" all MB scenario. Updating in so far that they were loaded and saved so that they were playable right away in TOAWIV. At least I have now Version 4.0, while officially 3.7 was afaik the latest.

A tweaked & fixed version would indeed be interesting, but here we have the same problem as back then. Discussion started if it was allowed to modify the scenario without the designers permission. Not sure if the thread was removed, at least I can't find it anymore.

While it may be a nice gesture to "get" designer permission to modify their scenarios, it is not
"illegal" in any way. Fair Use Doctrine. The scenario police aren't going to come knocking on your door, and if they or Matrix or whomever tried to sue or enjoin you from doing so, they would be laughed out of (American) courts.

Source: law reader for over 20 years at Baron & Budd PC and Arter Hadden PC.

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RE: Best Barbarossa scenario? - 6/23/2021 6:13:23 PM

Hellen_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

If I recall it had something to do with Matrix. But he did indeed deny anyone the right to post his scenarios years ago. Maybe he changed his mind by now?

He does not have that right. Fair Use doctrine.

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