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When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 12:53:06 AM   
WStriker

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline 		I'm set to use the option to attack Pearl Harbor, what mission do I set my planes to if I want to destroy the fuel storage tanks, and also the dry docks/ship repair facilities. I'm willing to spend the first day trashing the fleet and airfields if I have to, but I'd like to wreck the base itself. What do you suggest?
Post #: 1
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 1:01:42 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		You need to attack the port of Pearl Harbor if you want to hit the facilities including the dry docks and repair stuff (which I believe is pre-programed into the first attack as most ships are anchored or pier side anyway). There is no ability to "target" fuel stocks, but that might happen as a result of collateral damage. The first strike you have gets a bonus so I would hit the port (thus the anchored and moored ships) and airfields first . After that, it's your shot.

(in reply to WStriker)
Post #: 2
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 4:22:01 AM   
WStriker

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline 		Well, that sucks. Hurting the fleet is all well and good, but wrecking the base facilities and the fuel storage is what actually should have been done. It would have taken at least 12-18 months to set Pearl up to operate as a base for the Pacific Fleet again. This would have made taking Midway THEN Hawaii much easier.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 3
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 7:10:14 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Well, you cannot really hit PH fuel facilities in this game, only fuel stocks. PH don't have refineries or oil facilities that can be damaged.

Thus effects would be minimal.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to WStriker)
Post #: 4
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 7:29:49 AM   
Platoonist


Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
Status: offline 		Alan Zimm in his 2011 book Attack on Pearl Harbor: Strategy, Myths, Deceptions shone a lot of new light on this aspect of the Day of Infamy. He concluded that a third wave attack concentrated on the Navy Yard would not have destroyed more than 12% of the facilities even under the most optimistic assumptions, while the oil tanks would have been relatively easy to replace. Additionally, against now alerted air defenses it would have cost the Japanese a lot of planes and crew.

Frankly, a strike on the port facilities and oil farm was never even seriously planned for by the logistics-blind Japanese. Infrastructure targets had been briefly considered in the beginning, but Commander Minoru Genda rejected them in his initial estimates because there wasn't enough ordinance to spare. He felt that hitting a few critical naval targets decisively was more important than hitting many targets with only minor damage. Mitsuo Fuchida's claim to have argued for a third wave before Nagumo on the bridge of the Akagi is a story he concocted after the war.

< Message edited by Platoonist -- 7/5/2021 8:01:45 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 7:34:23 AM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WStriker

Well, that sucks. Hurting the fleet is all well and good, but wrecking the base facilities and the fuel storage is what actually should have been done. It would have taken at least 12-18 months to set Pearl up to operate as a base for the Pacific Fleet again. This would have made taking Midway THEN Hawaii much easier.

Your theory has been discussed up and down walls. Personally, I believe the consequences as you describe them are overrated. As I understand it there were no lack of fuel on the West Coast and the fixed fuel storages in PH could have been taken over by tankers stationed in the port. To use resources to attack what you describe also means that something else would have got a more lenient treatment. The wharf facicilities were used to repair the old battle-wagons which there was little use for, anyway. In practice, not much loss then.

As for a second attack (in the afternoon) - just to have mentioned it - image how much more air losses the Japanese would have suffered against a prepared Hawaii, even with its much reduced resources after the first attack.

Fred



< Message edited by Leandros -- 7/5/2021 7:35:52 AM >

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to WStriker)
Post #: 6
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 2:25:48 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		The game is a game after all but it's appeal to many is it's attempt to approach "realism" at the strategic level. But it also tries to reflect this at the tactical level as well. Attempting to "destroy" infrastructure is not an easy task. Having been stationed at Pearl for years, it's a sprawling base with its component parts in differing locals. Hitting these from the air would be VERY difficult. Heck even ground forces setting precise demolition charges would have a difficult time. So the game doesn't allow for such destruction easily. Lucky bomb hits can happen, but they are rare. Also, in regards to the Allies, the US has a remarkable ability to recover infrastructure quickly which reflects their engineering abilities. Given that the Japs are hitting this sprawling base with single engine single bomb carrying aircraft, one can see the difficulties. Additionally one has to take into consideration what Fred points out, you are taking your VERY BEST pilots and putting them at risk hitting targets that will be repaired no matter what comes along, in time. These pilots are your best torpedo and dive bomber folks. In second and third wave attacks the defenders get to actually defend! Loses will be heavy, is that really worth it? Those pilots are irreplaceable, as, unlike American pilots, the Japanese side gets only a trickle of trained pilots over the course of the game, another attempt to reflect reality.

(in reply to WStriker)
Post #: 7
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 2:58:33 PM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline 		Genda wrote after the war that the question of hitting the Pearl Harbor tank farms only arose after the attack. That it was an instance of being given an inch and asking for a mile in return. The attack's stated objectives were to sink warships and inflict a psychological blow on US morale. Oil tanks just didn't figure into that concept and for good reason when considered as a bomb hauling problem. Kido Butai's aircraft simply could not transport sufficient ordinance to destroy every type of target. So, the oil storage was never on the agenda. All the destruction of the oil storage would have done from the Japanese viewpoint is delay the inevitable American counterattack. For them the equation was of what use is oil without warships?

< Message edited by Shellshock -- 7/5/2021 3:33:14 PM >

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 8
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 3:18:48 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

You need to attack the port of Pearl Harbor if you want to hit the facilities including the dry docks and repair stuff (which I believe is pre-programed into the first attack as most ships are anchored or pier side anyway). There is no ability to "target" fuel stocks, but that might happen as a result of collateral damage. The first strike you have gets a bonus so I would hit the port (thus the anchored and moored ships) and airfields first . After that, it's your shot.

Specifically, in a port strike you sometimes get "Port Supply Hits" and "Port Fuel Hits". The amount of damage dealt to the fuel is a die roll combined with the effect of the bomb. And the damage to the port itself abstracts all the port facilities including fuel tanks and pumps, so damage to the port will decrease the ability to provide fuel somewhat.

It may not be as specific as you wanted, but this is a strategic level game and tactical detail had to be abstracted to keep the game playable.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 9
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 7:11:32 PM   
Torplexed


Posts: 305
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: The Pacific
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Also, in regards to the Allies, the US has a remarkable ability to recover infrastructure quickly which reflects their engineering abilities. Given that the Japs are hitting this sprawling base with single engine single bomb carrying aircraft, one can see the difficulties.


This is certainly reflected in the game given the substantial number of engineering squads and vehicles that start out stationed at Pearl. Once, as an experiment I used the game editor to set the port, airfield service and runway damage at Pearl Harbor on December 7th 1941 to 100%. I then set the game to computer vs computer play. By December 21st every last smidgen of damage at Pearl had been repaired. So even if you could target base installations directly and successfully with Nagumo's carriers it wouldn't set the US war effort back by much.

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Post #: 10
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 8:56:44 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

the fixed fuel storages in PH could have been taken over by tankers stationed in the port.


Or in barrels...



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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Torplexed)
Post #: 11
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/5/2021 10:26:08 PM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Speaking from an in-game perspective:
As an allied player I also would strongly agree that destroying any kind of infrastructure or supply/fuel in PH is insignificant for the allied war effort. Even if KB should manage to destroy all of the fuel reserves in PH(which is impossible) the Allies have still a million units of fuel lying around on the west coast that can be hauled to PH with ease. Any damage that can be realistically inflicted to the facilities and stockpiles on PH, during the 7th December surprise attack, can be repaired or restored by the end of December.
So every squadron that is not tasked to destroy surface or air assets on PH is just suffering attrition for no good reason and is diminishing the damage on said assets.

One of the most valuable allied asset that can be destroyed in fairly large quantities in PH are Catalinas. They are very important to the allied war effort and there are never enough of them early in the war and the majority of them are in PH at the start of the game. With their numbers reduced it can prove more difficult to keep track of Japanese movement in the Pacific. There are also some B-17 and other aircraft on the airfield that have low replacement rates early in the game and are thus hard to come by. All in all, destroying as much air assets in PH as possible will hurt the Allies much more than any kind of damaged infrastructure.
In my opinion, the only reason that speaks for sinking battleships is the large number of victory points they bring, otherwise they are strategically not that important in the early war as they tend to spend most of their time either in dry dock or anchored at some port. Even if they are not damaged in PH they do have a lot of important and lengthy upgrades in '42 which leads to a lot of dry dock time either way.

So destroying aircraft will hurt the allied war effort the most in the first months of the war and sunken battleships can provide a good amount of VP very early on.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 12
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/6/2021 2:14:15 AM   
WStriker

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/22/2010
Status: offline 		I will also state that I'm playing "The Reluctant Admiral" mod, so far, it's been a kinda slow moving blast. Japan is better prepared for war, but I'm looking at strategies to not outright win (Not really viable), but to delay the enemy long enough that he can't win. I've been poking around looking at available assets that I can divert for an open assault on Midway. That could make it possible to perform long range night harassment bombings at Pearl. As I recall, there's a full infantry division sitting around on Hokkaido, but the initial setup doesn't let you put it aboard ship for the sneak attack turn. I'm looking at hitting Midway by January with that unit (or elements of), then possibly staging for Hawaii. Grabbing all the oil sources I can beg, borrow, scrounge, or steal (preferred method here) is priority. But after giving the Allies a bloody nose at Pearl, it's best to follow up with a good swift kick in the ballz.The only thing nearly as valuable as oil, is TIME.
The above point about Catalinas is valid, they were actually my most valuable fast unit transport planes early on in my Allied play through, especially the PBY-4s with their outstanding range. I'm also intending to use my submarine force more offensively to hunt and kill convoys. Severing the life lines to Australia and New Zealand would make securing the area a bit easier. It still feels like trying to cram 50 lbs of sh*t into a 5 lb bag.

(in reply to Maallon)
Post #: 13
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/6/2021 2:50:55 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		The best way to destroy oil and fuel is to sink the tankers it's being moved in on their way to points West with your subs. The Japanese didn't do that well. You can try it. The amount of oil and fuel the US has on the West coast is for all purposes infinite, but it needs tankers to get where it's needed. The US has and will have a very finite shipping capacity for that.

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Post #: 14
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/6/2021 3:05:48 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		In my current campaign I didn't even attack PH. I concentrated on Singapore and made certain that there was no possible way POW and Repulse could escape. They were far better ships than any at PH that day.

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Post #: 15
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/6/2021 9:16:02 AM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

the fixed fuel storages in PH could have been taken over by tankers stationed in the port.


Or in barrels...



Well, fuelling ships from barrels......

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 16
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/6/2021 9:45:14 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WStriker

I will also state that I'm playing "The Reluctant Admiral" mod, so far, it's been a kinda slow moving blast. Japan is better prepared for war, but I'm looking at strategies to not outright win (Not really viable), but to delay the enemy long enough that he can't win. I've been poking around looking at available assets that I can divert for an open assault on Midway. That could make it possible to perform long range night harassment bombings at Pearl. As I recall, there's a full infantry division sitting around on Hokkaido, but the initial setup doesn't let you put it aboard ship for the sneak attack turn. I'm looking at hitting Midway by January with that unit (or elements of), then possibly staging for Hawaii. Grabbing all the oil sources I can beg, borrow, scrounge, or steal (preferred method here) is priority. But after giving the Allies a bloody nose at Pearl, it's best to follow up with a good swift kick in the ballz.The only thing nearly as valuable as oil, is TIME.
The above point about Catalinas is valid, they were actually my most valuable fast unit transport planes early on in my Allied play through, especially the PBY-4s with their outstanding range. I'm also intending to use my submarine force more offensively to hunt and kill convoys. Severing the life lines to Australia and New Zealand would make securing the area a bit easier. It still feels like trying to cram 50 lbs of sh*t into a 5 lb bag.


Glad to see you are playing the Mod. Michael and I have done so much work on the Between the Storms variants, we have not come back to RA in quite a while. Makes sense for us to come back to it and give it some serious work.


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to WStriker)
Post #: 17
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/7/2021 3:13:32 PM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 885
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WStriker

I'm set to use the option to attack Pearl Harbor, what mission do I set my planes to if I want to destroy the fuel storage tanks, and also the dry docks/ship repair facilities. I'm willing to spend the first day trashing the fleet and airfields if I have to, but I'd like to wreck the base itself. What do you suggest?


It sounds like you are planning to spend a few days on Pearl Harbor... Having trashed the airfield on day 1, I once peeled off my BB escort and performed a bombardment attack on day 2 of the war. Many additional port and airfield hits. I also killed more aircraft on the ground. I had KB leave after that tho, since my BB had expended most of their ammo.

_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to WStriker)
Post #: 18
RE: When Opening As Japan...... - 7/7/2021 3:33:54 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		If you stay, sweep the skies with your Zeros with a little LRCAP as well.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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Post #: 19
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