The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germans Make This Even Work

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The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germans M... - 7/4/2021 8:06:20 AM

tm1

Posts: 691
Joined: 5/15/2013
From: Central Coast NSW Australia
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I have just finished up a game and was looking over the map area, particularly the Arctic region, this reminded me of something I read about General Erich Marcks.

He authored the first draft of the operational plan, Operation Draft East, for Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union, advocating what was later known as A-A line as the goal for the Wehrmacht to achieve, within nine to seventeen weeks.

This goal was a line from Arkhangelsk on the Arctic Sea through Gorky and Rostov to the port city of Astrakhan at the mouth of the Volga on the Caspian Sea. Marcks envisioned that the campaign, including the capture of Moscow and beyond, citing the need to "protect Germany against enemy bombers.

By all accounts and the materiel I read about him he appears to have been a competent military planner, but looking over the game map the time frame he envisioned seems impossible, even with Finland's support via troop movement etc it seems impossible.

Arkhangelsk has one rail line period based on game map, virtually no decent road system, same applies to Murmansk, now I guess there were small villages and settlements but by the game standard they don't rate big enough so how did the Germans think they were going to supply there forces.

looking at the map I see only a few potential places to set up depots and they will be very spaced.

Then there is the countryside itself its almost endless Forrest.

The Southern part of this plan is hard enough trying to reach the oilfields,the Northern sector will be a nightmare for Army Group North with no help from the Finns.

Fortunately a opportunity has presented itself with a new patch arriving and a new campaign format.

And being the ever optimistic enthusiast I am I say

CHALLENGE EXCEPTED GENERAL MARCKS

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< Message edited by tm1 -- 7/4/2021 8:36:25 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/4/2021 8:25:53 AM

malyhin1517

Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
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The very plan of Barbarossa was calculated on the fact that after the defeat of the Soviet troops in a border battle, there would be practically no further organized resistance and Russia would fall like a colossus on feet of clay. So, initially, these plans were impracticable and built on false ideas about the weakness of the Soviet army and industry of the Soviet Union. So your General Marx was the same deceived theoretician who had no idea what kind of trouble Germany would get into after the attack on the USSR! The smartest Germans were categorically against an attack on the USSR, such as the German ambassador to Russia Schullenburg, who knew the power of the Soviet Union much better! But Hitler and his generals considered themselves smarter and paid for it, hoping to repeat the success in Poland and France!

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to tm1)

Post #: 2

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/4/2021 2:54:02 PM

Commanderski

Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
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You should read "Miracle At The Litza" ( https://www.casematepublishers.com/miracle-at-the-litza.html#.YOHMI2hKiUk)
about Operation Silberfuchs. Where from 29 June to 17 November 1941, a German–Finnish military operation during the Continuation War on the Eastern Front of World War II against the Soviet Union. The objective of the offensive was to cut off and capture the key Soviet Port of Murmansk through attacks from Finnish and Norwegian territory.

You could probably make a scenario from the information in the book with the Editor.

(in reply to malyhin1517)

Post #: 3

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/4/2021 3:05:48 PM

malyhin1517

Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

You should read "Miracle At The Litza" ( https://www.casematepublishers.com/miracle-at-the-litza.html#.YOHMI2hKiUk)
about Operation Silberfuchs. Where from 29 June to 17 November 1941, a German–Finnish military operation during the Continuation War on the Eastern Front of World War II against the Soviet Union. The objective of the offensive was to cut off and capture the key Soviet Port of Murmansk through attacks from Finnish and Norwegian territory.

You could probably make a scenario from the information in the book with the Editor.

As far as I remember, the biggest surprise for the Germans was the complete absence of roads that were on their maps and which were not in reality! Accordingly, all plans collapsed due to the impossibility of organizing the normal supply of their troops! In addition, the terrain was unsuitable for the use of tanks, so the efforts of the infantry were not enough. I think that the Germans simply did not calculate their forces, as well as on other fronts!

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to Commanderski)

Post #: 4

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/4/2021 7:39:28 PM

Omat

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Joined: 8/18/2004
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Hello

Nov. Dec 1940 Paulus lead some excercise tests, with the result that the german troops would hardly be sufficiently strong to fan out across th funnel-shaped theater if the red ary was capable of offering continued resistance.

_____________________________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to malyhin1517)

Post #: 5

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/5/2021 4:17:41 AM

malyhin1517

Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

Nov. Dec 1940 Paulus lead some excercise tests, with the result that the german troops would hardly be sufficiently strong to fan out across th funnel-shaped theater if the red ary was capable of offering continued resistance.

That's it! The Germans thought that after the destruction of the troops near the border, they would only continue to march and take the keys to the city from the burgomasters! Therefore, they did not prepare for the winter, and much more! Well, that's understandable, the Russians are Untermensch! How can they dare to resist the true Aryans?

< Message edited by malyhin1517 -- 7/5/2021 4:18:18 AM >

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to Omat)

Post #: 6

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/5/2021 7:52:52 AM

Jango32

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
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If you want detailed information I recommend checking out Germany and the Second World War Volume IV - The Attack on the Soviet Union from page 257. If needed I can record going through the pages because it's a long trek.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 7/5/2021 7:53:15 AM >

(in reply to malyhin1517)

Post #: 7

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/5/2021 8:00:26 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

You should read "Miracle At The Litza" ( https://www.casematepublishers.com/miracle-at-the-litza.html#.YOHMI2hKiUk)
about Operation Silberfuchs. Where from 29 June to 17 November 1941, a German–Finnish military operation during the Continuation War on the Eastern Front of World War II against the Soviet Union. The objective of the offensive was to cut off and capture the key Soviet Port of Murmansk through attacks from Finnish and Norwegian territory.

You could probably make a scenario from the information in the book with the Editor.

As far as I remember, the biggest surprise for the Germans was the complete absence of roads that were on their maps and which were not in reality! Accordingly, all plans collapsed due to the impossibility of organizing the normal supply of their troops! In addition, the terrain was unsuitable for the use of tanks, so the efforts of the infantry were not enough. I think that the Germans simply did not calculate their forces, as well as on other fronts!

Germans misunderstood the maps. Where they thought was road was instead "reindeer tracks".

MGEN Wallenius, commander of Finnish forces in Lapland in Winter War had extensive knowledge of terrain. He commented about German plans in 1941 that "Neither Germans or Russians cannot get through that area." I don't think Finns could either. It was supply nightmare terrain for offensives.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

(in reply to malyhin1517)

Post #: 8

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/5/2021 1:04:13 PM

malyhin1517

Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

You should read "Miracle At The Litza" ( https://www.casematepublishers.com/miracle-at-the-litza.html#.YOHMI2hKiUk)
about Operation Silberfuchs. Where from 29 June to 17 November 1941, a German–Finnish military operation during the Continuation War on the Eastern Front of World War II against the Soviet Union. The objective of the offensive was to cut off and capture the key Soviet Port of Murmansk through attacks from Finnish and Norwegian territory.

You could probably make a scenario from the information in the book with the Editor.

As far as I remember, the biggest surprise for the Germans was the complete absence of roads that were on their maps and which were not in reality! Accordingly, all plans collapsed due to the impossibility of organizing the normal supply of their troops! In addition, the terrain was unsuitable for the use of tanks, so the efforts of the infantry were not enough. I think that the Germans simply did not calculate their forces, as well as on other fronts!

Germans misunderstood the maps. Where they thought was road was instead "reindeer tracks".

MGEN Wallenius, commander of Finnish forces in Lapland in Winter War had extensive knowledge of terrain. He commented about German plans in 1941 that "Neither Germans or Russians cannot get through that area." I don't think Finns could either. It was supply nightmare terrain for offensives.

Nevertheless, the Russians were able to organize a successful offensive there in 1944 and capture Norway, surrounding the German troops there! :)

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 9

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/5/2021 1:50:49 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

You should read "Miracle At The Litza" ( https://www.casematepublishers.com/miracle-at-the-litza.html#.YOHMI2hKiUk)
about Operation Silberfuchs. Where from 29 June to 17 November 1941, a German–Finnish military operation during the Continuation War on the Eastern Front of World War II against the Soviet Union. The objective of the offensive was to cut off and capture the key Soviet Port of Murmansk through attacks from Finnish and Norwegian territory.

You could probably make a scenario from the information in the book with the Editor.

As far as I remember, the biggest surprise for the Germans was the complete absence of roads that were on their maps and which were not in reality! Accordingly, all plans collapsed due to the impossibility of organizing the normal supply of their troops! In addition, the terrain was unsuitable for the use of tanks, so the efforts of the infantry were not enough. I think that the Germans simply did not calculate their forces, as well as on other fronts!

Germans misunderstood the maps. Where they thought was road was instead "reindeer tracks".

MGEN Wallenius, commander of Finnish forces in Lapland in Winter War had extensive knowledge of terrain. He commented about German plans in 1941 that "Neither Germans or Russians cannot get through that area." I don't think Finns could either. It was supply nightmare terrain for offensives.

Nevertheless, the Russians were able to organize a successful offensive there in 1944 and capture Norway, surrounding the German troops there! :)

Germans were already withdrawing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nordlicht_(1944%E2%80%9345) ) and Soviets could use both sea supply and bring supply from south since Finland had ceded Petsamo area to Soviets.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 7/5/2021 1:51:09 PM >

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-

(in reply to malyhin1517)

Post #: 10

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/6/2021 10:02:15 PM

Wien1938

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Joined: 2/28/2006
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Think about the German experience in 1918, when the Russian Army collapsed and the Germans were able to use the railways to advance on Petrograd & Moscow and frighten the Bolsheviks into the Treaty of Brest Litovsk.

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 11

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/7/2021 10:19:12 PM

TallBlondJohn

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Joined: 4/3/2021
Status: offline

Also think about the German experience in France 1940 versus 1914. They really thought that National Socialism + blitzkrieg had given them the secret to success. In their eyes the French fought, then broke and melted away. Rommel simply took their rifles away and told them to go home, while refuelling his panzers from roadside gas stations.

Hitler and the OKW believed the Soviet union would be even easier - as their racist beliefs values the Slavs even less, and they had little intelligence on the conditions in the Russian interior (and didn't really think they needed any). So no gas stations. Crucially they were totally blind to how the nature of the Soviet regime (and the stoic determination of the people) would make resistance heavier - it was not a 'rotten house ready to collapse'. The Marks plan was a product of this set of fundamental delusions.

Napoleon had similar problems in Spain and Portugal, ordering his armies down roads that didn't exist, expecting them to live off the land in a semi-desert and fundamentally underestimating the Spanish people.

(in reply to Wien1938)

Post #: 12

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/8/2021 3:28:27 PM

bighinvegas

Posts: 58
Joined: 7/4/2004
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I recall an article in the Strategy & Tactics magazine (each issue with a wargame, it's how I got started in this hobby) where two Americans were on German public transit (back before the wall came down) discussing the the Eastern Front and why Germany lost. An old German overheard them, (WWII veteran) came over and told them why. He said "It was too damn far, too damn cold and there were too many of them."

(in reply to TallBlondJohn)

Post #: 13

RE: The Arkhangelsk–Astrakhan line, How Could The Germa... - 7/8/2021 6:14:51 PM

malyhin1517

Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Germans were already withdrawing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nordlicht_(1944%E2%80%9345) ) and Soviets could use both sea supply and bring supply from south since Finland had ceded Petsamo area to Soviets.

Another reason for the failure of the German offensive on Murmansk is that the supply went by sea and the Soviet navy actively opposed this.

_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 14

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