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Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 9:35:56 AM

Nowi Ribak

Posts: 65
Joined: 10/30/2011
From: Austria, Europe
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Hello folks,

situation as of 22.01.42 is quite nuanced - one the one hand the Jap advance is thorough, capturing Wake, Canton Island, Guadalcanal, Borneo etc. I try to leave them room, play mostly Sir Robin while consolidating at a few important landsites/ports.

Now the early push to the Solomons has surprised me, the capture of Canton was also quite aggressive IMO, so I prepared some small counterstrikes.

A.
KB sailing around Ceylon and then vanishing north (probably to resupply) has opened the region for counterattacks, 2 of my smaller TFs with 1 CA, 2-3 CLs and 4-5 DDs plow through JAP AKs and sink ~15 and some other stuff. Now although this feels "off" I dont know what else to do? Just let them advance and invade without screening forces? Ignore vulnerable AKs just for the sake of it? Why only send AKs and PBs for major invasions? The also love sending AKs into CB defended ports ... nothing I can do there.

B.
Same in the Solomon islands - very early push into the Coral See, seemed like a major threat for me. Gathered 3 CVs and counterattacked - mostly just again sinking AKs, no opposition so far.

C.
Another minor observation: AI led 2 DDs and 5 AOs into the coastal battery at Bataan, completely wiping the floor with them (also mines ...). Now I did not do any thing for that to happen, just pulled back my INF forces to Bataan, as the JAP army is advancing aggressivly on the Philipines islands.

Questions:
-So am I allowed to sink some AKs? Does this threaten his cargo fleet in a major way, or are some losses expected?
-Punishing JAP advance into Coral See ok? It is a major threat for Noumea and my US-AUS supply link, so I cant just let them flood me with AKs and army troops ...
-Does losing 5 AOs end the JAP game, or can I play on?

Now please dont just spam 'dont play AI', it wouldnt be helpful for my case, as I am really trying to accomodate to its weaknesses.

BR

Post #: 1

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 9:47:48 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

Which scenario do you play? Do you use the updated AI files?

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4257473

(in reply to Nowi Ribak)

Post #: 2

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 9:48:10 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nowi Ribak

Hello folks,

situation as of 22.01.42 is quite nuanced - one the one hand the Jap advance is thorough, capturing Wake, Canton Island, Guadalcanal, Borneo etc. I try to leave them room, play mostly Sir Robin while consolidating at a few important landsites/ports.

Now the early push to the Solomons has surprised me, the capture of Canton was also quite aggressive IMO, so I prepared some small counterstrikes.

A.
KB sailing around Ceylon and then vanishing north (probably to resupply) has opened the region for counterattacks, 2 of my smaller TFs with 1 CA, 2-3 CLs and 4-5 DDs plow through JAP AKs and sink ~15 and some other stuff. Now although this feels "off" I dont know what else to do? Just let them advance and invade without screening forces? Ignore vulnerable AKs just for the sake of it? Why only send AKs and PBs for major invasions? The also love sending AKs into CB defended ports ... nothing I can do there.

B.
Same in the Solomon islands - very early push into the Coral See, seemed like a major threat for me. Gathered 3 CVs and counterattacked - mostly just again sinking AKs, no opposition so far.

C.
Another minor observation: AI led 2 DDs and 5 AOs into the coastal battery at Bataan, completely wiping the floor with them (also mines ...). Now I did not do any thing for that to happen, just pulled back my INF forces to Bataan, as the JAP army is advancing aggressivly on the Philipines islands.

Questions:
-So am I allowed to sink some AKs? Does this threaten his cargo fleet in a major way, or are some losses expected?
-Punishing JAP advance into Coral See ok? It is a major threat for Noumea and my US-AUS supply link, so I cant just let them flood me with AKs and army troops ...
-Does losing 5 AOs end the JAP game, or can I play on?

Now please dont just spam 'dont play AI', it wouldnt be helpful for my case, as I am really trying to accomodate to its weaknesses.

BR

In situation A, the invasion TFs were in a place they did historically go, so striking at them is quite reasonable to me.

The Japanese expect to lose a few AK types but if you get over 30 of them before mid-1942 you might be resisting too much. The AI needs to take bases and get some supply to them if you want reasonable resistance later.

Japan can make more AOs - some from conversions and some fresh builds.
Noumea can be defended from Noumea. Striking in the Coral Sea wipes out too much of the shipping that could be headed for the Solomons or Port Moresby.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Nowi Ribak)

Post #: 3

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 10:12:42 AM

Nowi Ribak

Posts: 65
Joined: 10/30/2011
From: Austria, Europe
Status: offline

Scen 6 and I think so, with updated files.

---

Ok thx, wont "overdo" it then.

But I dont want them to take PM ... and they seem to have CONSIDERABLE forces already (keep in mind - end of 01/42, so basically start of campagin) on Guadalcanal, Munda etc.
I mean dont get me wrong - I like the ahistorical approach, but even in this case the Americans would have defended AUS, admiral King always thought about the Coral Sea ...

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 4

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 1:56:39 PM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

Quote from Alfred - you get a better game from the IJ scripted opponent if you let it have the must take bases and then dig in -

quote:

Time and time this question is asked. It really is pointless. It is not the specific script, not the particular scenario which matters. Any scenario/script (yes even Nast Nasty Tier 3) will cease to be competitive if the Allied human player focuses on stopping at all cost computer Japan from capturing in 1942 these bases:

1. Singapore
2. Manila
3. Clark Field
4. Bataan
5. Palembang
6. Batavia
7. Soerbaja
8. Rangoon
9. Mandalay
10.Rabaul

These bases are absolutely essential for any computer script.

Not quite essential but still of great assistance in maintaining a competitive AI player is for these bases to also be captured by the computer.

11. Port Blair
12. Port Moresby
13. Tarawa
14. Shortlands
16. Lunga
17. Akyab

All these bases (with the exception of Port Moresby) were historically captured by Japan, and it wasn't enough to make Japan really competitive in the war.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to Nowi Ribak)

Post #: 5

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 2:06:18 PM

Rusty1961

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Quote from Alfred - you get a better game from the IJ scripted opponent if you let it have the must take bases and then dig in -

quote:

Time and time this question is asked. It really is pointless. It is not the specific script, not the particular scenario which matters. Any scenario/script (yes even Nast Nasty Tier 3) will cease to be competitive if the Allied human player focuses on stopping at all cost computer Japan from capturing in 1942 these bases:

1. Singapore
2. Manila
3. Clark Field
4. Bataan
5. Palembang
6. Batavia
7. Soerbaja
8. Rangoon
9. Mandalay
10.Rabaul

These bases are absolutely essential for any computer script.

Not quite essential but still of great assistance in maintaining a competitive AI player is for these bases to also be captured by the computer.

11. Port Blair
12. Port Moresby
13. Tarawa
14. Shortlands
16. Lunga
17. Akyab

All these bases (with the exception of Port Moresby) were historically captured by Japan, and it wasn't enough to make Japan really competitive in the war.

"...it really is pointless".

I love how exasperated he gets when a new player, or just someone who doesn't have his level of expertise, asks a question.

THAT is what makes this forum so entertaining.

(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 6

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 3:09:32 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

"...it really is pointless".

I love how exasperated he gets when a new player, or just someone who doesn't have his level of expertise, asks a question.

THAT is what makes this forum so entertaining.

Really?
Just

!
Then be helpful.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Rusty1961)

Post #: 7

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 3:50:48 PM

Platoonist

Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
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I've haven't had a game yet against the Japanese AI yet where sooner or later it doesn't degenerate into something of a one-sided rout despite trying to pull the horns in. But that was the nature of the actual war on the naval side anyway.

_____________________________

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Post #: 8

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 4:44:32 PM

Rusty1961

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

"...it really is pointless".

I love how exasperated he gets when a new player, or just someone who doesn't have his level of expertise, asks a question.

THAT is what makes this forum so entertaining.

Really?
Just !
Then be helpful.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 9

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/13/2021 5:29:50 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

"...it really is pointless".

I love how exasperated he gets when a new player, or just someone who doesn't have his level of expertise, asks a question.

THAT is what makes this forum so entertaining.

Really?
Just !
Then be helpful.

Well then, if you don't want/like beer, then have something else.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Rusty1961)

Post #: 10

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/14/2021 8:23:11 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

What is with "nazi card"?

Besides, Nazi Coca-Cola was Fanta.

Fanta originated as a Coca-Cola substitute in 1940 due to the American trade embargo of Nazi Germany which affected the availability of Coca-Cola ingredients; the current formulation was developed in Italy.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 6/14/2021 8:25:21 AM >

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 11

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/18/2021 2:59:44 AM

Moltrey

Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline

Nowi:
It can also help in a versus AI game to set your difficulty level to Very Hard. One thing that enables is supply to more remote Japanese bases without the need for the transport network. They will hold out longer (obviously) and put up a better fight. I am not an expert on the other effects it enables, AndyMac is the one to talk to about that. I do recommend his AI upgrades the others have mentioned. It provides the Japanese AI with a handful of offensive "playbooks" from which one is chosen at random at game start. As long as you as the Allies don't poke around and figure out where the AI strengths, etc. are while playing, it can help make for a more unpredictable enemy. At least for the early war years.

< Message edited by Moltrey -- 6/18/2021 3:00:02 AM >

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 12

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/19/2021 1:17:55 AM

Rusty1961

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

"...it really is pointless".

I love how exasperated he gets when a new player, or just someone who doesn't have his level of expertise, asks a question.

THAT is what makes this forum so entertaining.

Really?
Just !
Then be helpful.

Well then, if you don't want/like beer, then have something else.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 13

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/19/2021 1:38:42 AM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

"...it really is pointless".

I love how exasperated he gets when a new player, or just someone who doesn't have his level of expertise, asks a question.

THAT is what makes this forum so entertaining.

Really?
Just !
Then be helpful.

Well then, if you don't want/like beer, then have something else.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 6/19/2021 1:41:36 AM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Rusty1961)

Post #: 14

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/19/2021 10:40:44 AM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

Thousand Beer Reich?

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 15

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/19/2021 11:04:28 AM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Thousand Beer Reich?

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 16

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 6/20/2021 4:27:34 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

To answer the OP,

If this is a stock scenario, then you need to play on HARD at least. Balanced is VERY HARD.

If you are using one of the Ironman scenarios, then HARD is ok, with a few days every month on VERY HARD.

This is in addition to Alfred's notes about what bases to allow the AI to advance.

If you play IJ against allied AI, then you are only need to watch the difficulty setting as noted above and NOT take Pearl or any other deep strike early in the game.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 17

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/3/2021 6:09:59 AM

Mock726

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/29/2020
Status: offline

I would also recommend playing against a Very Hard mode Japanese AI. It appears to allow the Japanese industry to continue operating close to peak production for much of the war, and the Japanese can never have enough stuff to throw in the way of the Allied juggernaut.

Historically the Japanese did seem to use invasion task forces with quite feeble defenders, hence the invasion convoys of AK's escorted by Patrol Boats. Part of their fondness for overly complicated operational planning. Don't use one task force when you can use three instead.

After securing their early war goals the Japanese AI settles down to defend what they have, and seems to do a pretty good job. But if they only capture half of the locations mentioned above its going to be a much shorter war. The AI does not seem to have any "second surge" and if they don't capture these places early on I don't believe they will try later in the war to go after them.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 18

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/3/2021 11:12:40 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mock726

I would also recommend playing against a Very Hard mode Japanese AI. It appears to allow the Japanese industry to continue operating close to peak production for much of the war, and the Japanese can never have enough stuff to throw in the way of the Allied juggernaut.

Historically the Japanese did seem to use invasion task forces with quite feeble defenders, hence the invasion convoys of AK's escorted by Patrol Boats. Part of their fondness for overly complicated operational planning. Don't use one task force when you can use three instead.

After securing their early war goals the Japanese AI settles down to defend what they have, and seems to do a pretty good job. But if they only capture half of the locations mentioned above its going to be a much shorter war. The AI does not seem to have any "second surge" and if they don't capture these places early on I don't believe they will try later in the war to go after them.

They will try again and again - up to the expiry date for the script to capture the base. This is why the Allied player can smash the AI - the targets are identified and the Allies can concentrate their defences and do some raiding on the incessant invasion TFs of the Japanese.

The other big issue is the poor make-up of the IJN TFs. The AI cannot do longer range planning so it will grab whatever vessels happen to be available, whether they are suited to the task or not. Thus a fast vessel like a CA is plunked in a slow moving xAKL TF which wastes its speed advantage.

If I understand correctly, AndyMac's new files for stock scenarios provide different scripts with a wider range of IJ targets and some unexpected raiding behaviour. That alone will add some challenge for the Allied player, but add the Hard or Very Hard setting to give the AI more supply so it can actually build at some of those scattered outposts.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Mock726)

Post #: 19

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/3/2021 1:46:52 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

It is fun to destroy all six fleet carriers, some CVEs and CVLs as well before the Junyo comes in - not to mention 4 or 5 BBs as well.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 20

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/4/2021 5:50:34 AM

Mock726

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/29/2020
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20/20 hindsight is a huge problem in games like this. Everybody knows where the Japanese are going to invade because those are the places they have to take and hold to get the oil and protect their supply lines. Not a lot of options for them. A drive into the Aleutians and Western Canada is not a war winning strategy, no oil known in Alaska at the time.

From watching progress in and reviewing saves from the Computer vs Computer games I ran the Japanese AI seems to do a good job mimicking historic Japanese plans both in the early war offense and the later war defensive phase. The Allied AI does a good job losing stuff and places early on and makes at least some attempt to counter attack in '42 to early '44, but not very effectively. For some reason the Allied AI after mid 1944 has stopped offensive operations and by early 1945 all Allied warships are in harbor in California or India. Would have been nice if the manual mentioned the AI plays Japan for the whole war but the Allies for only the first two-thirds.

Currently playing against the Japanese AI in Dec '44 starting from an October 1944 save from a Comp vs Comp game. The Japanese central pacific defenses are very well manned, Kido Butai is in the Indian Ocean (with an 11 CV task force) looking for the British fleet (hiding in Colombo). Even with the bountiful supply of ships and planes and stuff it will be a challenge to get from here to Tokyo Bay. So the AI can give you an interesting game but it has its limitations.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 21

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/4/2021 5:32:10 PM

HansBolter

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The AI is the BEST opponent hands down.

It is always ready to play when I want to.

It never pesters me for a turn when I don't feel like playing.

It doesn't saddle me with a feeling of obligation to execute a turn or more every day.

It doesn't demand House Rules.

And most of all, it doesn't quit when it's bid for auto victory fails.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Mock726)

Post #: 22

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/4/2021 6:21:30 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The AI is the BEST opponent hands down.

It is always ready to play when I want to.

It never pesters me for a turn when I don't feel like playing.

It doesn't saddle me with a feeling of obligation to execute a turn or more every day.

It doesn't demand House Rules.

And most of all, it doesn't quit when it's bid for auto victory fails.

You left some others out.

1. It never attempts to cheat, unlike some humans whose cheating attempts have been exposed on the forum.

2. It knows the game mechanics so it never demands a redo when ignorance of the rules prompts some humans to demand a redo when they oops.

Alfred

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 23

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/4/2021 9:35:09 PM

12doze12

Posts: 53
Joined: 12/26/2014
From: Portugal
Status: offline

quote:

Currently playing against the Japanese AI in Dec '44 starting from an October 1944 save from a Comp vs Comp game. The Japanese central pacific defenses are very well manned, Kido Butai is in the Indian Ocean (with an 11 CV task force) looking for the British fleet (hiding in Colombo). Even with the bountiful supply of ships and planes and stuff it will be a challenge to get from here to Tokyo Bay. So the AI can give you an interesting game but it has its limitations.

I'm just starting my first proper full campaign but that sounds really interesting, how do you set up a comp vs comp all the way to 1944 or another date?

(in reply to Mock726)

Post #: 24

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/4/2021 10:43:38 PM

Nomad

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There is an option on the main screen to select "Both Computer." Set the pointer for that, and then select your scenario and go. When you are ready to start playing, press the F9 key and it should stop at the next end of turn.
You will then need to set which side is going to be controlled by the computer and set the pointer for that.

_____________________________

(in reply to 12doze12)

Post #: 25

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/4/2021 11:12:01 PM

12doze12

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I wasn't very clear with my question, my bad. I'm aware of the CPU vs CPU mode and jumping in to play but was wondering if there is an easy way to set the game to stop auto playing at a specific turn or date. I guess the answer is no though.

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 26

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/9/2021 4:26:50 AM

Mock726

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The game just keeps running until you hit <F9>. You can influence how fast the game plays by turning on combat animations, slows it down quite a bit. Just don't turn on anything that requires you to click a button for the game to proceed to the next event. With everything turned off on my computer it advances maybe two months game time per hour real time.

Also beware the game does not always pay full attention to some things, like organization and command structure. I spent the first game month in my Oct '44 game moving US headquarters from San Francisco and and Pearl to where they should have been already. A lot of shuffling units around and pulling ships out of the battle line to send them to the dry docks for overdue repairs. It does do a fine job of demonstrating the chaos of war though

. And simulates the endless headaches of every new commander trying to figure out what their predecessor was thinking (or drinking).

(in reply to 12doze12)

Post #: 27

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/9/2021 7:23:35 AM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mock726
20/20 hindsight is a huge problem in games like this. Everybody knows where the Japanese are going to invade because those are the places they have to take and hold to get the oil and protect their supply lines. Not a lot of options for them. A drive into the Aleutians and Western Canada is not a war winning strategy, no oil known in Alaska at the time.

It is not a problem if you view AI as a partner not opponent for the initial period. A partner in playing out this initial period close to some version of reality that is. With lack of info, chaos and incompetence on Allied side included.
You are perfectly able to stop Japan AI dead at Palembang / Moulmein because you know certain things and can concentrate assets effectively. But should you?

(in reply to Mock726)

Post #: 28

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/9/2021 2:37:43 PM

RangerJoe

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I usually can wipe out the AI Japanese on Luzon . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 29

RE: Mixed feelings about AI game - 7/10/2021 12:10:16 AM

ny59giants

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You also need to run either 2 or 3 day turns to prevent you from micro-manage each turn. Allow the AI to surprise you with some moves.

Download Andy Mac's Ironman Nasty scenarios. I haven't played vs the AI for many, many year and the AI has done some stuff that I was not even slightly expecting. I could mention what some of them are, but do not want to take away any pleasures other players have gone though.