Soviet Gun Production Question

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Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/15/2021 7:40:15 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
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I have a question on Soviet Gun Production. This is for a game, turn 8 server game vs. Roadwarrior.

My question is this: Why don't all guns produce each turn? I have plenty of Armament Points (over 1.6 mil) so that should not be the limitation. Why is production of many guns "skipped"? Is this WAD?

Below you can see some examples. Some guns, like the 85mmKS-12 AA gun, have been in continuous production. Some, like the 122mm M-30 Howitzer, I've produced some; 231, but that's not 70 x 8 turns (560). Other types I haven't produced any; some I have fairly good pools of (76mm Field gun), but some with no production I am short of, like the 7.62mm Quad AA. Whether a gun produces or not seems to be fairly random.

I also know from experience that the Red Army is going to need all these guns regardless of today's pools

So what gives here? Why the random production/non-production?

I am about to execute the Minister for Armaments as a Fascist Saboteur, but before I do that, is there another explanation?

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< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/15/2021 7:43:59 PM >

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/15/2021 8:16:44 PM

821Bobo

Posts: 2311
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From: Slovakia
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Whats manpower status? You need also men for every device.

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/15/2021 8:34:26 PM

Q-Ball

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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Whats manpower status? You need also men for every device.

Good question esteemed opponent, but that should not impact production, should it? Like all Soviets at this stage, I'm using up the Manpower pool each turn, and 105K-ish guys are dropping in

It is true that in order to get Guns and AFVs to the MAP you need manpower, but the manpower is provided at the time they enter the map, not to get into the pool if that makes sense. Unless I have been wrong all these years, production does NOT require manpower, just deployment to a unit DOES require manpower. The Guns in the pool have no men attached.

If that is the case, still doesn't answer the question: Why no gun production?

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/15/2021 8:35:35 PM >

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/15/2021 10:17:46 PM

AlbertN

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
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I think the point is that out of each turn manpower allocation too many go in let's say Rifle Squads, and then you're short of the 'crew' needed to staff a gun.

I do agree the system should max out first and foremost the 'limited' per turn pieces though.

Mine is just a big IF thought anyhow working on what is above.

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/16/2021 12:02:56 AM

Firewire9452

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/1/2021
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In my Soviet games, I�ve noticed that production sometimes ramps up over a few turns for new weapons and I�ve noticed there seems to be a �need� component where production does not occur (or it occurs less) if you have a sufficient reserve already. This is all anecdotal and may be wrong.

< Message edited by Firewire9452 -- 7/16/2021 12:03:44 AM >

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/16/2021 2:03:23 AM

56ajax

Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
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It would appear production is dependent on how many you have in the pool.

My game T1

85mmKS-12 AA gun produced 50 and now have 58 in the pool.

122mm M-30 Howitzer produced 3 and now have 901 in the pool.

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/16/2021 12:45:47 PM

821Bobo

Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Whats manpower status? You need also men for every device.

Good question esteemed opponent, but that should not impact production, should it? Like all Soviets at this stage, I'm using up the Manpower pool each turn, and 105K-ish guys are dropping in

It is true that in order to get Guns and AFVs to the MAP you need manpower, but the manpower is provided at the time they enter the map, not to get into the pool if that makes sense. Unless I have been wrong all these years, production does NOT require manpower, just deployment to a unit DOES require manpower. The Guns in the pool have no men attached.

If that is the case, still doesn't answer the question: Why no gun production?

You don't need men for the device but to complete ground element you do need.
So every element production is limited by both, manpower and armaments.

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/16/2021 2:16:02 PM

Speedysteve

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline

FWIW I've also highlighted this before whey it would sometimes produce many 76.2mm Art but 0 of the AT version etc etc.

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/16/2021 3:03:33 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Whats manpower status? You need also men for every device.

Good question esteemed opponent, but that should not impact production, should it? Like all Soviets at this stage, I'm using up the Manpower pool each turn, and 105K-ish guys are dropping in

It is true that in order to get Guns and AFVs to the MAP you need manpower, but the manpower is provided at the time they enter the map, not to get into the pool if that makes sense. Unless I have been wrong all these years, production does NOT require manpower, just deployment to a unit DOES require manpower. The Guns in the pool have no men attached.

If that is the case, still doesn't answer the question: Why no gun production?

You don't need men for the device but to complete ground element you do need.
So every element production is limited by both, manpower and armaments.

I believe this is not correct. Under 26. Replacements, the manual states (Page 315): "During the replacement segment, available manpower is matched with the equipment in the pools to form complete ground elements". This is also mentioned in 26.1.3. This is during the REPLACEMENT segment. Items in the Pool DO NOT have manpower attached. If they did, that would also mean that lots of manpower would be "locked" in the pools, sometimes attached to obsolete or unused equipment.

Manpower is NOT a limitation on Production per the manual. Additionally, there is no mention in sec 28 of manpower needed for production

So, still the question: Why is the Red Army NOT building needed guns?

The only limitation I see is that: "If the 'ar' is followed by a number then the production system will try to make roughly that many each turn (subject to available armaments) unless there are 10x that number of items in the pool"

I think this is what is happening. Confusingly, the system counts ALL pools together, not just the Active Pool. So, for example, that 7.62 QUAD AA device that I have produced none of despite an 'ar' number of 25; while there are only 15 in the active pool, there are over 400 in the TRANSIT pool. Even though I can't yet use the transit pool, that "Counts", and so production is halted.

This is also happening with the 45mm AT gun; the transit pool is large, and this gun produces only when the total pool gets under 250 x 10 = 2500 total in the pool

So, I think this is WAD. I think it also means though that Soviet players should try to get equipment out of the pool and onto the map so it will produce if you can. Eventually, you are going to need every single gun, and production is not enough in the long run.

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/16/2021 8:13:30 PM

ussdefiant

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Joined: 6/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The only limitation I see is that: "If the 'ar' is followed by a number then the production system will try to make roughly that many each turn (subject to available armaments) unless there are 10x that number of items in the pool"

I think this is what is happening. Confusingly, the system counts ALL pools together, not just the Active Pool. So, for example, that 7.62 QUAD AA device that I have produced none of despite an 'ar' number of 25; while there are only 15 in the active pool, there are over 400 in the TRANSIT pool. Even though I can't yet use the transit pool, that "Counts", and so production is halted.

This is also happening with the 45mm AT gun; the transit pool is large, and this gun produces only when the total pool gets under 250 x 10 = 2500 total in the pool

So, I think this is WAD. I think it also means though that Soviet players should try to get equipment out of the pool and onto the map so it will produce if you can. Eventually, you are going to need every single gun, and production is not enough in the long run.

I personally think this question should be raised to the developers as to whether production SHOULD be counting stuff in the transit pool as opposed to the active one. Having 2000 122mm guns in various repair depots and the like should hardly be preventing production of 70 a week if there's none actually available for issue to the front, IMO.

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Post #: 10

RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/17/2021 4:24:34 PM

malyhin1517

Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ussdefiant
I personally think this question should be raised to the developers as to whether production SHOULD be counting stuff in the transit pool as opposed to the active one. Having 2000 122mm guns in various repair depots and the like should hardly be preventing production of 70 a week if there's none actually available for issue to the front, IMO.

+1

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RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/18/2021 3:40:20 AM

RoadWarrior

Posts: 224
Joined: 5/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Whats manpower status? You need also men for every device.

Good question esteemed opponent, but that should not impact production, should it? Like all Soviets at this stage, I'm using up the Manpower pool each turn, and 105K-ish guys are dropping in

It is true that in order to get Guns and AFVs to the MAP you need manpower, but the manpower is provided at the time they enter the map, not to get into the pool if that makes sense. Unless I have been wrong all these years, production does NOT require manpower, just deployment to a unit DOES require manpower. The Guns in the pool have no men attached.

If that is the case, still doesn't answer the question: Why no gun production?

You don't need men for the device but to complete ground element you do need.
So every element production is limited by both, manpower and armaments.

I could be wrong but it looks to me like manpower is the bottle neck?

< Message edited by RoadWarrior -- 7/18/2021 3:42:07 AM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Soviet Gun Production Question - 7/18/2021 6:22:01 PM

Denniss

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
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lack of manpower should not affect armament-based production unless armaments are also lacking. Or the replacement function does not ask for their production as they can't be isued due to lack of manpower.

(in reply to RoadWarrior)

Post #: 13