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RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA

 
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RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 5:39:32 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

This opening in the South worked pretty well for me in my other game. I'm testing it again this game.


Great :) Nothing wrong with that at all.

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 31
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 5:57:35 PM   
Rosencrantus

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 1/9/2021
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.

< Message edited by Rosencrantus -- 7/27/2021 6:01:10 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 32
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:02:56 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Thank you for the input with paint.net

No pockets & all mountain divisions are safe.



Embarrassment of riches. I'm jealous.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 33
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:09:30 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.


I think the opening few weeks 'get there the furth'est with the most'est' is the order of the day, but mountain divisions and just the opportunity to pin an enormous number of map counters still make the Lvov Pocket the scariest opening to me. You can't get back the mountain divisions, and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
Agree, especially in the south, that Russia routed units early on are their own worst enemy. 8 MP and can't rail, just bounced around until pocketed because they can't outrun panzers on the steppes. But those mtn divisions...


(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 34
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:17:15 PM   
Rosencrantus

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 1/9/2021
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Hahahahahaha that is too funny man. I didn't know soviet mountain divisions were that good but even then going for a Lvov pocket means you can't route the soviet units near the Romanian border the next turn and allow the early deployment of the Southwestern Front. So I wouldn't take that deal honestly. It also seems from an AAR that I saw that tried going for a Lvov pocket that the pocket is practically guaranteed to get opened up during the Soviets turn so that is also a lot of wasted campaigning time.

< Message edited by Rosencrantus -- 7/27/2021 6:18:42 PM >

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 35
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:18:59 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.


Yup, both tactics are viable with the scale tilted towards surrounding units in my opinion.

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 36
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:23:23 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.


... and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
...


2 bits on release I would have agreed with Rosencrantus' analysis, I now think that pockets are more important, its all about limiting the size of the Red Army come the autumn/winter/spring 1942

Seminole - why do you think that mtn divisions are better in the blizzard turns? Is that something from WiTE1 but because they have no particular advantages in snow etc in WiTE2


_____________________________


(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 37
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:25:25 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

Hahahahahaha that is too funny man. I didn't know soviet mountain divisions were that good but even then going for a Lvov pocket means you can't route the soviet units near the Romanian border the next turn and allow the early deployment of the Southwestern Front. So I wouldn't take that deal honestly. It also seems from an AAR that I saw that tried going for a Lvov pocket that the pocket is practically guaranteed to get opened up during the Soviets turn so that is also a lot of wasted campaigning time.


Mountain Divisions are a nice grab with high morale for the Germans. It isnt the end of the game if not gotten, just means you will have to deal with them later on if they manage to escape.

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 38
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:26:26 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.


I think the opening few weeks 'get there the furth'est with the most'est' is the order of the day, but mountain divisions and just the opportunity to pin an enormous number of map counters still make the Lvov Pocket the scariest opening to me. You can't get back the mountain divisions, and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
Agree, especially in the south, that Russia routed units early on are their own worst enemy. 8 MP and can't rail, just bounced around until pocketed because they can't outrun panzers on the steppes. But those mtn divisions...




Hehehehe, Seminole on the WARPATH for some "Mountain" units. Wonder what mountains he be wanting? ;-P

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 39
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 6:30:50 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Edit: grammar errors.


... and they can be stout hardpoint defenders in '41, as well as invaluable in operational blizzard plans.
...


2 bits on release I would have agreed with Rosencrantus' analysis, I now think that pockets are more important, its all about limiting the size of the Red Army come the autumn/winter/spring 1942

Seminole - why do you think that mtn divisions are better in the blizzard turns? Is that something from WiTE1 but because they have no particular advantages in snow etc in WiTE2



Loki on the WARPATH to debunk WITE1 items carried over to WITE2.

Mtn Division have better Morale :)

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 40
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 7:00:11 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

I genuinely believe right now that while pocketing is important in this game, the benefits to routing is also really useful. While there is a unit left behind that can ZOC, it is extremely weak until it is given replacements. Doing this will clog up the soviet supply network. If they are sent back to the reserve to fully reinforce that will take multiple turns and the unit will have low experience, forcing you to leave it in the reserve box to train it up or send it to the front, taking up rail capacity and becoming a free meal for my units. Pocketing ties up units and in the open spaces of the south where lines can get stretched, I need to keep my units concentrated and every turn there has to be damage dealt and threats the Soviet player must respond to.

Routing/shattering all those Soviet units on T1 costs a lot of CPP and lets large numbers of men escape. If they are pocketed then the pockets can be reduced by some dedicated 'pocket reduction' divisions while a good part of the army charges forwards as fast as possible. Killing unpocketed forts lets a lot of their manpower escape.
True, the routed units have little combat value for a few turns but I expect HLYA to protect as many as he can and then you will be facing a larger Soviet army come mid to late summer.
Taking Ventspils on T1 is also important to isolate the units in Courland, it just takes one unit from a broken down Mot division.
Maybe you will prove me wrong with your strategy, good luck with it !

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 41
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 7:02:43 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Exactly, Mountain Units have 5 points higher morale. They also have no GUARD limits and don't count toward infantry limits.
That's really it. But that's useful.

If you are playing REALLY long term, they also come into play in 1944 when you are back in the Carpathians

_____________________________


(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 42
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 7:05:26 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		Ventspils can be isolated via naval interdiction, no need to waste mot regiment.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 43
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 7:41:19 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Exactly, Mountain Units have 5 points higher morale. They also have no GUARD limits and don't count toward infantry limits.
That's really it. But that's useful.

If you are playing REALLY long term, they also come into play in 1944 when you are back in the Carpathians


Very useful

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 44
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 7:45:20 PM   
Seminole


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Joined: 7/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
Seminole - why do you think that mtn divisions are better in the blizzard turns? Is that something from WiTE1 but because they have no particular advantages in snow etc in WiTE2


Didn't realize they no longer have the weather advantage, that was a nice tool in the box.
They are elite units, with a +5 morale bonus. Don't know how their TOE stacks up, but in my observation they offer good CV and I like to have them on a hardpoint in '41, or more often behind a few hexes to counter attack and stop any bleed through.


12.1.2. ELItE UNItS
Both the Soviets and the Germans fielded units that were regarded as elite. These units gain a modifier to their respective national morale as:

Special Bonus
§ German regular (or LW) Elite units +15
§ Soviet Guards +10
§ SS Elite +5 in 1941, +10 in 1942, +15 1943 and later

Also some units gain a potential morale bonus due to their
type (the type bonus and the special bonus can be added
together):

§ Cavalry, Mountain, Airborne and Air Landing +5
§ Axis Allied motorized units +5
§ German Motorized Units +10

Note this includes formations such as the Gross Deutschland and the Hermann Goering Panzer Division

§ Soviet Motorized Units (from Sept 1942-August 1943) +5, Soviet Motorized Units (Sept 1943-end of war) +10.


Example: a Soviet Motorized Guard unit in 1945 has a net +20 modifier (+10 motorized in 45 +10 Guard), while a Soviet Guards Cavalry unit would have a +15 modifier (+5 cavalry +10 elite).

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 45
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 7:46:27 PM   
Rosencrantus

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 1/9/2021
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I used a naval patrol to cut off the port units in Courland so they are still isolated.

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 46
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 7:58:27 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I used a naval patrol to cut off the port units in Courland so they are still isolated.


Yup, true statement! Frees up the Moto unit to go elsewhere.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 47
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 8:48:07 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
....

12.1.2. ELItE UNItS
Both the Soviets and the Germans fielded units that were regarded as elite. These units gain a modifier to their respective national morale as:....

§ Cavalry, Mountain, Airborne and Air Landing +5
....



its amazing what you find in the manual, I'd honestly never noticed that effect ... I shall go and tell off the author for not warning me

_____________________________


(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 48
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 9:02:41 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
....

12.1.2. ELItE UNItS
Both the Soviets and the Germans fielded units that were regarded as elite. These units gain a modifier to their respective national morale as:....

§ Cavalry, Mountain, Airborne and Air Landing +5
....



its amazing what you find in the manual, I'd honestly never noticed that effect ... I shall go and tell off the author for not warning me


When you go tell them off please carbon copy us, we have a right to know of course ;-P

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 49
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 9:16:08 PM   
Rosencrantus

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 1/9/2021
From: Canada
Status: offline 		By the way what is the turn delay going to be? I might start my own AAR. If you update your AAR live I'm going to have to keep myself from looking at any of your unit deployment.

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 50
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 9:26:26 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

By the way what is the turn delay going to be? I might start my own AAR. If you update your AAR live I'm going to have to keep myself from looking at any of your unit deployment.


Depends on how I feel when I post. Some posts will be live some may not. But, you are "never" restricted from looking at my AAR nor posting in it. If I post it and you can use it to your advantage then it is my own fault for sharing it.

Just set what ever delay you are comfortable with on yours.

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 51
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 9:30:57 PM   
Rosencrantus

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 1/9/2021
From: Canada
Status: offline 		If that is so I'll impose restrictions on myself. I don't want any advantage like that. I should have to spend some recon planes for enemy unit placement .

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 52
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 9:41:26 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		Playing Soviets in 41 makes me pull my hair out... Maybe I should contract my turns out to M60 ;-) Wonder what the going price would be for his services.

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 53
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/27/2021 11:38:56 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I totally misunderstood that rule thank u

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 54
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/28/2021 3:36:48 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Playing Soviets in 41 makes me pull my hair out... Maybe I should contract my turns out to M60 ;-) Wonder what the going price would be for his services.


There are several ways to skin the cat, I need to get more comfortable using filters in the CR and making changes there in batches. I’m guilty of poking around to much ‘manually’ while brooding what to do.
If anyone has tips, especially with the air war, share in your AAR. Someone posted a nice how to on unit relocation across the mao which was useful, but I still haven’t spent time wrapping my head around the best purpose for AOGs.


(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 55
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/28/2021 5:07:47 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		What to do with the VVS in the early game probably deserves it's own thread. Not just cleaning up the devastation of T-1, but figuring out how to rebuild from there. The Polk re-sizing really helps a ton, when Polks go from 67 planes to 32 (August I think), to 20 (September)....that greatly simplifies what you are trying to do. It also helps to understand the differences between IAD, BAD, DBAD, SAD, etc, so you can deploy fighters and bombers together in places they can support each other. Also seems important to know when to deploy the VVS; the LW can really rip them up, but the Axis will to a point when they outrun
their aircover

There are other nuances....what to do with the Moscow Air Command? Central Front does not have a dedicated Air Group like all the other Fronts, what do you do about that? What do you do with Long Range Air Command? I could go on

Anyway, someone should start a thread because I'm sure there would be interest

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/28/2021 5:09:11 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 56
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/28/2021 5:14:11 AM   
mrblonde1


Posts: 51
Joined: 6/6/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

I used a naval patrol to cut off the port units in Courland so they are still isolated.


Yup, true statement! Frees up the Moto unit to go elsewhere.





I tried this tactic twice but my opponents did nothing to break the blockade. Can soviet player do something about it?

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 57
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/28/2021 5:39:45 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mrblonde1

I tried this tactic twice but my opponents did nothing to break the blockade. Can soviet player do something about it?


Soviets can counter interdict but it is literally impossible on T1. Maybe if German player do not fly during Soviet phase they can muster enough to break it.

(in reply to mrblonde1)
Post #: 58
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/28/2021 5:42:59 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mrblonde1

I tried this tactic twice but my opponents did nothing to break the blockade. Can soviet player do something about it?



Soviet player can create naval patrol air directives as well, but ineptitude of Soviet Air Force at this stage and likely distance to target could make it unlikely to succeed. Need a differential of 2 for blockade to be in effect. This blockade is for supplies, not strategic movement, however if the isolated units are depleted they can’t recover and utilize strategic movement, so they are in effect trapped and will ‘melt’ away in the logistics phase if not encountered.
I’ve seen rifle divisions gain 80%+ replacements in the port on Saaremaa, but supply flow seems hit or miss with version changes, so it’s a dangerous game to count on hanging out there.

(in reply to mrblonde1)
Post #: 59
RE: Motherland in Flames (Axis) Rosencrantus (Soviet) HLYA - 7/28/2021 6:28:11 AM   
Rosencrantus

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 1/9/2021
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I remember trying to use naval transport in tiles where there was enemy naval interdiction. You get a pop up saying a transport has been sunk and you end up losing a lot of men.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 60
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