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Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 6:47:55 AM   
sveint


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Status: offline 		I've been testing shore bombardment and it's not only too powerful, but useful in all sorts of inappropriate cases.

Have trouble advancing in Egypt, bring in a fleet and watch the odds explode. Use the French fleet like never done in history and support a land battle one hex inland.

I'd go so far as to say it's the one last "exploit" left.

In my opinion, shore bombardment should only help invasions, and the effects should be much less.

< Message edited by sveint -- 8/3/2021 6:48:08 AM >
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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 1:27:31 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		It might be too strong for non invasions, but I'd leave it alone so far as invasions go, especially with garrisons getting a recent buff.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 1:33:34 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Status: offline 		That would probably be a nice compromise indeed. Nerf it for non-invasions/non-beach fighting only.

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 8/3/2021 1:34:27 PM >

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 1:54:33 PM   
Villain

 

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Status: offline 		IMHO, I feel it's well balanced as it is and provides additional choices to the game.

The allies have one decent ability that they can use in offense and defense throughout the entire war if they don't throw away their ships needlessly.

In the early game the Axis can easily neutralise the advantage by not directing their entire blitz effort in France along the coast and using their airpower to clear ships from the channel before a real or threatened Sealion.

Ships are essentially irreplaceable and the axis should take every opportunity to sink those that they can. Researching naval air (Germany only since the italians suck ) is useful as is having strong German land and air units in North Africa. As it is its already too easy to ignore the Atlantic wall and North Africa and send everything to the east to stomp the Soviets.

Also it would be near impossible for the Allies to advance in Italy or into the Netherlands without using Naval Bombardment.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 2:40:25 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

(Germany only since the italians suck )


Now now, let’s not trash poor defenseless Italy. I love to play this little country, so I take it personally!

With Naval airplanes I have had both bad (mostly!) experiences with Germany and Italy and (some here and there) good ones.

But I still think (maybe biased) that it can make sense for Italy to do it (instead or as well as Germany) because they are one year ahead. And this compensate their lower experience (although I think 45 national XP could be better for Italian air units instead of 40XP but that is another question).

If I understand the mechanic correctly a newly arriving 1940 Italian Tactical (at 100% readiness) would have a Naval air rating of 1.2 while a German one of 1939 would be 1. For a Ground support version of the Naval air, the numbers would be respectively 1.6 to 1.5.

In 1942 (compared to Germany 1941) we can assume that Italy’s air XP is up to 45 (not such a bad assumption from my experience). So, for tactical type of planes, it would be 1.8 for Italy to 1.5 for Germany. For Ground support type it would be 2.25 to 2.

Also, I believe the opportunity cost is lower for Italy since they will have one less plane for mediocre ground support (Italy sucks even more at ground support) in exchange for an OK naval air. But for Germany, it will forfeit a very good tac probably for a mediocre, to OK, naval air.

But but but…, as I can also see the other side, this can change a lot if Germany catches up the tech on Italy or, if instead of building a naval air, they take one of their advanced tactical units at 60% XP let’s say and convert it into a 58% XP naval air. Now that is indeed clearly much more impressive...

Also, I did not calculate the defense value for each. Some year, Germany’s ones might be higher even if at lower tech.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 2:44:41 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Status: offline 		Sorry, I have highjacked the thread of Naval support. Not on purpose, but Italy's reputation was at stake.

My bad!

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 5:31:56 PM   
ncc1701e


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Status: offline 		I will highjack the thread a second time to say that carrier based planes bombardment well inside France (not far from Metz) during Fall Gelb is a little unreal.
And given carrier based planes of 1939/1940, their impact on effectiveness of an infantry corps or a panzer corps are well overrated.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 5:41:02 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I might have to start using carriers in France instead of chasing subs...

This whole business of using carriers to shadow uboats is very tedious, tbh.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 8:33:24 PM   
stjeand


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Status: offline 		Carriers do some good hits in France...though they have to be kept safe or the Luftwaffe will sink them.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 8:37:07 PM   
ncc1701e


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Status: offline 		They do too good hits for me and too far away from the coastline.
This is just unreal.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 9:11:21 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Status: offline 		I do not know if the range is ok or not. But if a range is good for anti-naval, should be good for anti-land if the CVs are willing to take the risk of hugging the coast? And they are still the aircrafts with the least range of the game and from 39 to 45.

But for hits, I guess it depends how many groups are involved? Two CV groups have the same number of planes as a land based air unit.

The component of the air group might be hard to evaluate for a fair comparaison however. I seems to recall that CV air groups are 2/3 bombers and 1/3 fighters (or a single type of aircraft doing both roles, usually badly in at least one role). But then again, land-based bombers also include some intrinsic escorts in their numbers according to the manual. So maybe the number of bombers of 2 CV groups could be close, or not that far off, to a land based bomber?

Also, one thing that might play in their favor making them better than expected is the 60% experience of the Royal Navy?

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 8/3/2021 9:12:46 PM >

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/3/2021 9:13:58 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Status: offline 		PS: Thanks for highjacking the thread a second time after me. Now I feel less bad

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 8/3/2021 9:14:12 PM >

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/4/2021 10:37:36 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		With 4 tactical bombers it's going to be hard to keep the luftwaffe out of range, at least once they've got airfields in Belgium.

My own German build adds two ground support, and I personally would be able to spare the 4 tactical and just use 4 ground support for the land advance. Sinking UK CVs is a high priority target if possible.

You might be able to arrange it so the German bombers have to fly out of escort range.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/4/2021 1:39:30 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Status: offline 		I'm too much of a coward with my CVs to use them to maybe slow down the fall of France by a turn. Rather keep them in a safer place and take risks only for a life or death situation (or incredible opportunities) where the risk is clearly worth it.

Of course, that is beside the obvious mistakes of jugement, of range calculation, of miss-clicks and sometimes impulsive reactions

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/4/2021 2:48:27 PM   
stjeand


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Status: offline 		Well back to shore bombardment...

It is WAY to powerful.

I had one attack change from a 3 to 1 to a 7 to 1...

Should not be able to more than double your odds.

Perhaps double at best? Maybe it was a 3.5 to 1 which rounded down?

There has to be a limit. I don't want a 1 to 1 to go to a 5 or 6 to 1.




As for carriers...

Yes 2 carriers appear to cause more damage than a tactical wing which is WAY wrong.
You need 4 carriers to have to same number of planes as a LBA...AND CVs are a much more mixed wing...1/3 fighter 1/3 tactical 1/3 ground for the most part.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/4/2021 7:24:17 PM   
sveint


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Status: offline 		How big is a hex? Why should bombardment affect a land battle?

I just figured out the fleets are decicive in Egypt, forget "desert warfare", it's all about bringing in that bombardment and you can pulverize even a full-strength panzer or UK armour, turning a 1to1 into a rout, even overrun.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/4/2021 8:23:00 PM   
sveint


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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/4/2021 8:34:28 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Whoever brings out the fleet to play first in the Med risks getting it sunk by the other side. So there is an element of risk involved here. You might blow up one hex once, and then you've shot your wad. (Unless the UK player foolishly did not leave a substantial fleet down there. This does happen from time to time.)

So you have to be pretty selective about when you throw down that ace.

For all of that, the effect of shore bombardment is pretty wild. I wouldn't mind seeing it toned down for non invasions, as I said above.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/4/2021 8:37:57 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		You can also see this on the defense, BTW. Try attacking a unit with a fleet parked next to in support. It will cost you dearly. That gives the French navy and the Baltic Sea Fleet something to do. The Baltic See fleet should probably never even sortie from base aside from the sub, as long as it sits there it is going to make taking Leningrad very difficult. The German can bomb it, but that's what flak is for.

For D Day, the allies can also take advantage of this. Keep as much of the fleet hugging the shores at all times as possible to make German counterattacks a bloody proposition.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/5/2021 7:23:39 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You can also see this on the defense, BTW. Try attacking a unit with a fleet parked next to in support. It will cost you dearly. That gives the French navy and the Baltic Sea Fleet something to do. The Baltic See fleet should probably never even sortie from base aside from the sub, as long as it sits there it is going to make taking Leningrad very difficult. The German can bomb it, but that's what flak is for.


No more possible, no shore bombardment if fleet is in port. Otherwise, all the French fleet was in Calais and Dunkerque to stop the Panzer corps there.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/5/2021 8:38:10 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I thought it still worked outside of ports, though. You have that whole coastline to work with.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/6/2021 11:20:06 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Status: offline 		I agree that show bombardment is too powerful. But if it the effectiveness of shore bombardment is reduced than you have to increase the effectiveness of air units. Otherwise it will be almost impossible for the Allies to invade a well defended coastline or advance up the coast of Italy as they did historically.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/9/2021 2:40:43 AM   
sveint


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< Message edited by sveint -- 8/9/2021 6:51:56 AM >

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/12/2021 6:51:42 AM   
sveint


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Status: offline 		Feels like cheating:




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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/12/2021 2:02:24 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		While I agree it is probably a little too good for these noninvasion attacks, the Italians do have to be positioned to respond (and discourage) this and vice versa. That means forward basing the Italian navy in Tobruk. Or, maybe, Athens or Crete if the Axis took Greece. (Personally I don't think it is ever worth taking Greece as the Axis, but mileage may vary. The only time I'd ever bother is if I was skipping a 41 Barbarossa and going after the UK. Which imo is a poor strategy under the present game balance. You are always better off going after the Soviets in 41.)

The Axis also needs to put enough airpower in the Med to make the Brits think twice about sending out the fleet. And this is something the Axis can do if they want to, they will have a big edge in air for a long time. Personally, nowadays I research naval strike with the Germans and switch all the tac to that after France. That mass of airpower can be concentrated either in the Med or in Norway/Finland (where it can do a number on arctic convoys.) Leave ground support to actual ground strike aircraft.

4-5 ground support is more than enough to support a Barbarossa. Adding the tac to that is kind of a waste. The tac can have a much bigger impact elsewhere.

I will happily trade off a single panzer corps for half the British navy if I can bait out in a situation where it will be overwhelmed by the Axis response. The Germans can replace that panzer corps. The Royal Navy is essentially not replaceable. In raw PP terms this is massively to the Axis advantage if they can set it up right and may even secure the Med for them for the rest of the game. But if you aren't willing to commit the air and naval assets down there to check the Royal Navy, well, c'est la guerre.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/12/2021 2:19:02 PM >

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/12/2021 2:19:08 PM   
Villain

 

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Status: offline 		Id be curious to see what effect losing 40% effectiveness (as it appears possible that 5 attacks with shore took place) and being on the coast would equate to if the Italian navy came out to play after the UK fleet was also attacked by air.

Losing a tank (don't put them on a coast if they can be attacked this way) just might be worth it to sink a few capital ships.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/12/2021 2:28:32 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Losing a tank for half the royal navy is not even a close call. Like I said, this is something like a 4-1 exchange in the Axis favor. (Maybe less than that assuming the RN takes down some of the Regia Marina with them.)

Ships are just incredibly expensive. 600-800 pps for BBs and CVs. Once the British lose those, they are just gone forever. Even the USA would be hard pressed to replace those, let alone the UK economy. That navy down there is equal to a year or more of British production. Good luck trying to replace it once gone.

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/12/2021 3:39:36 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Status: offline 		Out of curiosity, what were the predicted odds for that last attack if you remembers? Since it was, probably, a 5th attack with two rounds of 2 units the non-shore odds could also have been over 5vs1 and maybe even more? They sometimes go up quite fast. SO if the normal odds would have been 7vs1, then 9vs is not so bad. If however it goes from 4vs1 to 9vs1 just because of the fleet, then ya, maybe too much. Fleet should add a lot but no be a death star.

But still would like to have more info to get a good opinion.

For now, I have same opinion as Flaviusx: probably good as is for invasions (or maybe all beach/coastal battles?) but maybe a little strong for other battles (if only because it assumes that all the other battles are near coast).


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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/12/2021 4:59:25 PM   
stjeand


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Status: offline 		Well keep in mind...

the Italian navy sucks...it will probably lose an attack against that force.

Yes you may have to have a lot of "air" in that location but you are not going to have 5 bombers to scratch that.
IF I am lucky I might get 1 maybe 2 hits at the cost of 5 or 6 air points.
And that would mean I need 2 or 3 Germans bombers in Africa which is highly unlikely.

What I have been having issue with is the German Armor don't retreat often if at all.


BUT to fix this...you can't "bombard" if you are out of Op points. They should not be able to support 5+ attacks.
No air unit can so why can ships?

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RE: Shore bombardment is too powerful - 8/12/2021 5:12:55 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		The Italian navy, positioned correctly, and backed up by 3-4 naval strike planes can annihilate that force. It is absolutely vulnerable to a counterstrike.

But you have to commit the assets to make this happen.

Don't underestimate the Italian navy. It can counterpunch very well. If you put it out there first, and don't support it, then yes it will be mauled. But this situation? Tasty.

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