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Choosing which HQ is boosted - 2/19/2020 1:32:03 AM

HamburgerMeat

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Assuming you have three HQs and you want one to boost another specific one, is there a way to attach HQs to each other, or do you have to hope that it chooses the one you want to boost?

In addition, what is the HQ to HQ boost range in terms of hexes? Is that dependent on C&C or supply or something else?

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 2/19/2020 1:38:14 AM >

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 2/19/2020 4:08:53 PM

Treefrog

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If I understand your question, I haven't seen a need to do that.
As I observe the supply rule the best supplied HQ will be the base of a HQ chain. I have run as many as three together to campaign in western China.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 2/19/2020 7:09:49 PM

HamburgerMeat

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The reason I ask is because I remember situations where Id have 3 Italian HQs in Africa (one in Tobruk, one west, and one east), but the eastern-most Italian HQ was not boosted and did not provide an 8 supply despite being the same distance from tobruk as the western HQ.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 2/21/2020 1:34:09 AM

Hubert Cater

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Hi HamburgerMeat,

HQ linking/boosting is automatic but the engine tries to do it as intelligently as possible. For example:

- Source HQs of a supply boost to another HQ are now highlighted with a yellow hex outline, indicating they are the source of the supply boost, when clicking on the recipient HQ.
- The engine will seek to make lower rated HQs provide supply for higher rated ones, rather than vice versa.
- HQs can only be linked if the first HQ has a supply value >= 1
--> the HQ to be linked must have a supply value < 5 and is now automatically boosted to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 8.
--> this will improve distribution supply for boosted HQs that were at 3 or 4 supply (from 6 to 8), and more importantly, will allow them to 'operate' and 'upgrade' now that they are at 5 supply.

The boost range is dependent on the distribution supply of the source HQ. For example, if it has a distribution supply of 8, then the linked HQ needs to be within 8 hexes etc.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 2/21/2020 1:35:35 AM >

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 2/21/2020 2:22:12 AM

HamburgerMeat

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Just the breakdown I was looking for, thanks for explaining Hubert!

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 2/21/2020 1:30:18 PM

Hubert Cater

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My pleasure

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 2/23/2020 2:19:42 PM

fulcrum28

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any screenshot would be helpful.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/26/2020 2:32:56 PM

EarlyDoors

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi HamburgerMeat,

HQ linking/boosting is automatic but the engine tries to do it as intelligently as possible. For example:

- Source HQs of a supply boost to another HQ are now highlighted with a yellow hex outline, indicating they are the source of the supply boost, when clicking on the recipient HQ.
- The engine will seek to make lower rated HQs provide supply for higher rated ones, rather than vice versa.
- HQs can only be linked if the first HQ has a supply value >= 1
--> the HQ to be linked must have a supply value < 5 and is now automatically boosted to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 8.
--> this will improve distribution supply for boosted HQs that were at 3 or 4 supply (from 6 to 8), and more importantly, will allow them to 'operate' and 'upgrade' now that they are at 5 supply.

The boost range is dependent on the distribution supply of the source HQ. For example, if it has a distribution supply of 8, then the linked HQ needs to be within 8 hexes etc.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

I think HQ supply at low levels is too generous and with the chaining rules makes the Western Desert indefensible.
For example, if the Axis chains 3 HQs around Tobruk, Mersa Matruh and El Alemain then it is wasted effort to reduce the supply of those towns and ports. Even if you reduce all to zero, on the Axis turn they will all grow to 1, which the source HQ will distribute as 5, the second takes a 4 and outputs 6, the third takes 5 and distributes 8. So the front line troops are at full supply which is exactly as they would be if the towns and ports were at full supply.

Have you considered lowering the supply output at lower levels?

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/26/2020 3:55:25 PM

LoneRunner

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[/quote]
I think HQ supply at low levels is too generous and with the chaining rules makes the Western Desert indefensible.
For example, if the Axis chains 3 HQs around Tobruk, Mersa Matruh and El Alemain then it is wasted effort to reduce the supply of those towns and ports. Even if you reduce all to zero, on the Axis turn they will all grow to 1, which the source HQ will distribute as 5, the second takes a 4 and outputs 6, the third takes 5 and distributes 8. So the front line troops are at full supply which is exactly as they would be if the towns and ports were at full supply.

Have you considered lowering the supply output at lower levels?
[/quote]

Hi Early,
If I understand correctly, an HQ can only boost one other HQ. And a boosted HQ cannot boost another HQ. That would eliminate the opportunity to create a daisy chain of HQs.

Hopefully Hubert can confirm my understanding.
Lone

< Message edited by LoneRunner -- 9/26/2020 6:13:25 PM >

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/26/2020 4:04:15 PM

LoneRunner

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Dang, I still haven't figured out how to use the quote box.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/26/2020 6:09:35 PM

LoneRunner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

The boost range is dependent on the distribution supply of the source HQ. For example, if it has a distribution supply of 8, then the linked HQ needs to be within 8 hexes etc.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,
Just want to make sure I understand the process of one HQ boosting another HQ.

Let's say a full-strength HQ is on a hex with a level 5 supply. That means the HQ has a supply distribution value of 8. If another HQ were 8 clear hexes away, that HQ could boost the second HQs supply level to 5? However, if an army were 8 clear hexes away, the original HQ would only provide 1 supply to that hex (because the supply degrades 1 point per hex).

If the hexes between the original HQ and the boosted HQ were desert, then the original HQ could only boost an HQ 4 hexes away because desert costs an extra movement point? Then if a sandstorm whipped up, the range would be only 2 hexes (drop the rounding)?

Also, I'm not sure if zone of control affects supply range. So, movement cost is higher through a zone of control but supply goes right through a zone of control without penalty?

Thank you for advice.
Lone

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Post #: 11

RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/27/2020 2:36:42 AM

Cpuncher

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I'm pretty sure a boosted HQ can not boost another HQ.

On the other hand, I would ask the Devs please please allow manual designation of HQ boost. I know it's done automatically, but as it stands now, it's still very messy and there are issues when the HQ may or may not get boosted. I could have 2 HQs sitting at exactly the same position without moving, and for the first turn 1 can boost the other, yet the next turn it won't, and there are no other HQ nearby. This problem seems to come from the supply growth of an adjacent resource. It seems when the HQ that's supposed to be boosted has an adjacent recourse grow to 4, then it will stop receiving boost, even though it is far more beneficial to than using the adjacent resource. However this doesn't seem always repeatable, and I don't know what's the cause.

Once you have a 3rd or 4th HQ in the region, then it can get really messy. The automatic process seem to always boost the closest HQ, though often times you need the farthermost one(still within range) to be boosted. The consequence of boosting the wrong HQ for just one turn is extremely severe, as it can cause the collapse of an entire front (e.g. the Russian south) and possibly the game, when you are playing against a competitive human. Since you usually are pushing your front line to the 5 supply envelope, 1 wrong boosting could mean those units are now supplied at 3 or lower, which means they are now easy kills and non-replaceable. Coupled with the issue of sometimes it will stop boosting because of some nearby resource, it's too messy of a situation that we can afford not to have manual designation of HQ boosting.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/27/2020 11:47:25 AM

Dazo

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I would add one of the problem that HQ situation creates is that it can get very confusing when you have HQs from different countries in crowded areas.
Ex: North Africa with 2 IT HQs and 1 german HQ, Russia of course with hungarian, italian, romanian and german HQs, or british indian and commonwealth units in Africa.
Add to that differences between minors and majors (like the fact italian HQs can command german minors units) and it's hard to predict supply for next turn.
You'll just move units/HQs and pray the S key shows good results that'll actually stick.
I often see air units with atrocious supply right next to HQs but that may be those pesky partisans

.

Well all in all it makes Russia the logistical hell hole it should be but it can be a bit frustrating just pushing your HQs blindly in some locations.
So maybe some clarification about the whole sharing supply thing could help players.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/27/2020 3:20:20 PM

Cpuncher

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dazo

I often see air units with atrocious supply right next to HQs but that may be those pesky partisans .

Air units are supplied differently from ground ones. They need to be directly commanded by a HQ to receive supply from that HQ.

Right now it seems to me what separates an advanced player from a good one is whether he (or she?) understands supply fully (or as much as possible). A very good player like Elvis who is excellent at tactics and maneuver with tons of experience still don't know enough about supply. Sorry I have to pick on you here Elvis.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/27/2020 3:31:58 PM

Dazo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher
Air units are supplied differently from ground ones. They need to be directly commanded by a HQ to receive supply from that HQ.

Thanks for the tip, missed that, well usually I keep air units attached but with HQs on semi-auto, makes senses there are some surprises here and there

.

And it's true even if you're the best maneuvering guy, you're toasted if you're out of supply (hello Rommel and that 44 Ardennes brawl).

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/27/2020 4:27:24 PM

pjg100

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I have experienced similar frustration with the supply linking process. While I have read the supply linkage rules several times, and have lived with the rules in their various iterations for some time, I must confess that I still have a difficult time predicting the outcome of any linkage involving three or more HQs. Sort of like the SCWaW version of the Three Body Problem. While a logical linkage would attempt to push supply to the front, at times I see an HQ in the rear (perhaps supplying air units) as the linked HQ and an HQ near the front with low supply, with an HQ in between that could provide supply to either. I will often use the supply prediction tool along with shuffling HQs around gingerly, leaving sufficient APs to reverse a move if it results in worse supply, but this is obviously a less than optimal process. It would simplify play, and avoid some very frustrating situations such as those described by Cpuncher, were the devs to enable a manual linking option.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/28/2020 9:45:01 PM

Hubert Cater

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Hi everyone, I can confirm that a boosted HQ cannot then boost another HQ.

We can think about a way to manually select which HQ should boost another, but this is a bit tricky as positions change on every turn and there is no guarantee that what you select on a previous turn will hold up on another turn leaving players to wonder why an HQ is not linked.

Also supply is calculated prior to the beginning of the turn and then it would have to be recalculated if you are manually amending the HQ link/boosts, and this might be exploitable unless you only allow it prior to any moves. In the end, with the additional rules and restrictions in place it could be just as frustrating, for some, relative to the current automatic assignment etc.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/29/2020 12:56:00 AM

Aussiematto

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I would comment that while the supply effects are tricky to anticipate (even with the S-key to give you an idea) and that it would take insanely detailed play to get it right at all times, I think WaW models supply effects really well compared to most games. I concur that organising supply is probably the #1 challenge at an operational level and rewards people who think well ahead. My play has slowly improved since I started to grapple with it and, usually, when I screw up badly, it's cose I've just been thinking about 'attack!!!' and not 'where is the food n bullets'. The interplay of command, morale, readiness, supply is a delicious puzzle which makes much more realistic play, especially in places like East Africa and the Chinese mountains.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/29/2020 3:35:06 AM

James Taylor

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The supply feature is fine(grand strategy scale) and replicates the quirks and innuendos of a true life logistical system, especially of WW2 vintage.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/30/2020 6:21:37 AM

Patrat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi everyone, I can confirm that a boosted HQ cannot then boost another HQ.

We can think about a way to manually select which HQ should boost another, but this is a bit tricky as positions change on every turn and there is no guarantee that what you select on a previous turn will hold up on another turn leaving players to wonder why an HQ is not linked.

Also supply is calculated prior to the beginning of the turn and then it would have to be recalculated if you are manually amending the HQ link/boosts, and this might be exploitable unless you only allow it prior to any moves. In the end, with the additional rules and restrictions in place it could be just as frustrating, for some, relative to the current automatic assignment etc.

First let me say that I'm really enjoying the game. You have done an excellent job improving the AI. At the highest difficulty,it actually does a very credible job as the Axis powers.

That being said, the one thing in the game that "really grinds my gears" is how the automatic HQ boosting works, or doesn't work.

I have read everything about how its supposed to work, and a some of the time it works as advertised. But then there are the times, where it doesn't work as expected. And as someone else pointed out, these can come at the worst possible times. It's very frustrating to say the least.

I think the problem may lay as Cpuncher pointed out,

"This problem seems to come from the supply growth of an adjacent resource. It seems when the HQ that's supposed to be boosted has an adjacent recourse grow to 4, then it will stop receiving boost, even though it is far more beneficial to than using the adjacent resource."

I'm not sure if this is always the cause of suddenly losing your boosting. But in my experience it sure seems like it is.

I'm currently just playing the wonderful AI, but I doubt I'd ever risk playing a human player with the HQ boosting working as it currently does.

In short I'd love to be able to manually select which HQ gets boosted. It wouldn't bother me at all it I had to change reassignments every turn due to changing conditions. I often change HQ-troop assignments nearly every turn anyway.

In a nutshell, its something a little more predictable is what I'm looking for. Anything you can do in that regard will be very appreciated.

< Message edited by Patrat -- 9/30/2020 6:34:51 AM >

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 9/30/2020 8:04:14 AM

boudi

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A day i have to take a holliday in order to translate this topic in french...

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 10/1/2020 3:27:46 PM

Hubert Cater

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Hi Parat,

If you ever encounter a turn where you feel the supply boost between HQs is not quite what it should be please send me a turn to support@furysoftware.com.

I just mention this as ideally the engine is maximizing unit and HQ supply automatically, e.g. this is what it is supposed to be doing, and if it is not then I can take a closer look and apply the appropriate fix.

As mentioned above, manually re-assigning on your turn would be potentially problematic.

At the moment I honestly don't see a good solution here, just meaning it could be technically done, but in order to not exploit the supply rules it would have to literally be done prior to moving any of your own units, and that could end up being confusing with players wondering why this is the case and why it has to be limited this way and why you can't boost an HQ after they have moved and so on.

For now I'd rather the automatic calculation simply be refined to be as optimized as possible for all players.

Hubert

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 8/6/2021 6:17:07 PM

randomradar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi everyone, I can confirm that a boosted HQ cannot then boost another HQ.

We can think about a way to manually select which HQ should boost another, but this is a bit tricky as positions change on every turn and there is no guarantee that what you select on a previous turn will hold up on another turn leaving players to wonder why an HQ is not linked.

Also supply is calculated prior to the beginning of the turn and then it would have to be recalculated if you are manually amending the HQ link/boosts, and this might be exploitable unless you only allow it prior to any moves. In the end, with the additional rules and restrictions in place it could be just as frustrating, for some, relative to the current automatic assignment etc.

I can give you a very simple and reliable way to handle this without exploits and problems and give people what they are asking for :).

Allow designating an HQ as the priority for boosting (either boolean flag or rank integer). The code then will then try to find another HQ to boost it and compare boosting the HQ to using an ordinary supply source (to avoid the problem with 4 that people pointed out). The code will not need to guess or make mistakes about what should be boosted since the player chooses. The player will get the best supply available for the designated HQ.

Then it is up to the player to manage HQ boost designations (which will take effect on the next calculation phase). If there are conflicts like designating every HQ as boosted (boolean true or equal ranks), then the code will default to the current rules for trying to sort it out. Right now the code uses command value to try to decide priority. I am just proposing using a separate flag because command value is not always the right criterion.

Flagging an HQ for boosting is a simple way of telling the code which HQ is "at the front" and needs to be optimized.

< Message edited by randomradar -- 8/7/2021 5:52:06 PM >

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 8/7/2021 5:05:54 PM

KorutZelva

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Hi Hubert!

In this example the american HQ to the south is not boosted while the south african and sudanese HQ are. The american HQ has expensive air units attached to it. The South african and sudanese have no units attached to them.

Sorry if the image is croped but it was difficult to stay under size limit!

Attachment (1)

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 8/9/2021 4:07:39 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks for the additional thoughts here gentlemen, let me have a good think on this for a little while, and of course add this to the list.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 8/9/2021 7:48:55 PM

Duedman

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I would also greatly appreciate beeing able to set some sort of priority. Especially in Russia it can get quite confusing.
I would like the possibilty to connect them manually like I can do with units. Just a "Semi Auto" Mode. If it wont give a positive effect any longer, switch to auto calculation.

Why has this to be done prior to any unit movement? It wont take effect in the current turn anyway, no?!

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 8/9/2021 9:45:08 PM

Hubert Cater

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Correct, it won't take effect on the current turn, but I would think we'd still need to continue to show what the previous association between parent HQ and boosted HQ was so that the supply map for the current turn still makes sense. So we'd need highlights for proposed association, previous association etc., and this might be confusing, maybe for new players, maybe not for those pretty familiar overall with the system.

It's just a matter of getting it all right and intuitive enough as many find the current supply model confusing enough as it is. At the moment I'm really just suggesting that these kinds of things really do need a good think to sort it all out in an ideal way.

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RE: Choosing which HQ is boosted - 8/10/2021 4:54:51 PM

Duedman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Correct, it won't take effect on the current turn, but I would think we'd still need to continue to show what the previous association between parent HQ and boosted HQ was so that the supply map for the current turn still makes sense. So we'd need highlights for proposed association, previous association etc., and this might be confusing, maybe for new players, maybe not for those pretty familiar overall with the system.

Maybe you are overthinking this? (plz dont get me wrong!)
Right now I have an HQ which I desperately want to have more Supply but I often cannot see which other HQ I would have to move where. All I can see is "Supply now" and "Supply next turn".
I cannot see why where would be a need to see all the "what ifs" you mention.
If the player decides to manually interfere with HQ coupling then he wants the supply status next turn to change a lot. So there should be not head scratching about the effects I think.
Maybe hide it in an expert mode or flag it as such?

But:
If you decide not to do anything I will still love this game! :)

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