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Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 4:28:15 PM   
DicedT

 

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Status: offline 		How big can a surface combat TF be before there are penalties?
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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 4:34:02 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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Status: offline 		It used to be 15 before AE. I think it still is, but am not positive.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 4:37:05 PM   
Puhis


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Status: offline 		It's still 15.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 4:51:37 PM   
Don Bowen


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It's 25 in AE

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 4:58:19 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		And 15 in WITP-AE..... I would be curious as to how that limit was decided... there should be some sort of reasoning.. Anyone know it? Hal

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 5:23:18 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		I'd rather know what the mean/max size of surface TFs usually was in RL. I imagine the bigger a TF, the harder to command.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 5:35:09 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


It's 25 in AE


+1

It was 25 in stock as well. The "15" is a soft limit on AA effectiveness. After 15 ships the cumulative AA total incurred a diminishing returns penalty.


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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 5:52:39 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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Status: offline 		Ships do seem to collide more in big TF - or is that my imagination.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 6:09:04 PM   
DaveConn

 

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Status: offline 		If so, then I am imagining the same thing. Also seems to me there are more collisions when moving at maximum speed.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 6:14:19 PM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		It's true that risk of collisions increase with TF size.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 6:16:50 PM   
Mundy


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Status: offline 		I believe that for anti-aircraft purposes, going over 15 ships led to diminishing returns on their strength.

Might be where the confusion lies.

Ed-

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 6:23:35 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I believe that for anti-aircraft purposes, going over 15 ships led to diminishing returns on their strength.

Might be where the confusion lies.

Ed-


25 ship TF still have more AAA strength than 15 ship (if composition is roughly similar). Just that ships over 15 count contribute less and less (aka not fully, because TF is spread so wide).


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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2012 8:26:36 PM   
ross119


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Status: offline 		Well TG 38.1-TG 38.3 in of December 1944 was 27- 28 ships consisting of 3-5 fleet/escort carrier mix and adjoining BB/CA and numerous destroyer escorts. These Task Groups and others at the time made up the 3rd Fleet which essentially was one big 132 ship fleet.
I have also seen pictures of at least 20 carriers all sailing in the same fleet ( again carrier mix of fleet.cve ), in the closing stages of the war. Task Force 42 I think was one of the largest I believe?
I don't think those Task Forces had any penalty's for over 20+ ships in RL tho! lol

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/8/2012 3:47:38 AM   
Cribtop


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Status: offline 		Several discussions in AARs left conventional wisdom as recommending no more than 10ish for good surface combat fighting, although the official impacts are at 15 and 25 as stated. The 10 ship thing is anecdotal but seemed supported by the fact that ships in bigger TFs failed to engage often.

Even more important was TF composition. Matching speeds and, critically, main gun ranges for TF capital ships was demonstrably better per the collective wisdom, articulated best by Nemo's excellent posts on the matter.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/8/2012 2:39:52 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		I never really found matching gun size and speed were as critical as some do. As long as things are close I think it is OK. I have not seen any adverse effect in placing say six inch CLs in a TF with eight inch gunned CAs, or a 32 knot DD in a TF with a 36 knot DD. I do think TF size in a night action is important and really never use TFs larger than 10 ships if looking for a night fight. But there are many other factors. Moonlight is just a critical as TF size and composition. Anyone using BBs in a TF with little or no moonlight is just asking to eat torpedoes while perhaps the larger capital ships won't fire a shot in return. On the other hand, full moonlight might allow for an extra ship or two and generally opens the ranges making it more suitable for larger ships. And it depends on your goals. Smaller but multiple TFs may overwhelm a larger superior TF.

Most important this is you want every ship to fire its guns and torpedoes. This becomes less likely the larger a surface TF is.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/8/2012 3:09:08 PM   
Puhis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Several discussions in AARs left conventional wisdom as recommending no more than 10ish for good surface combat fighting, although the official impacts are at 15 and 25 as stated. The 10 ship thing is anecdotal but seemed supported by the fact that ships in bigger TFs failed to engage often.



Yes, no point to put more than 10-12 ships to surface combat TF. One of my opponent tend to used 20-25 ships. Those TFs could do absolutely nothing.

One of my best combat TF was just 4 Japanese Fubuki-class destroyers. They sunk modern allied BB with Long Lances, and badly damaged heavy cruisers. It was night time combat with little moonlight. Eventually I lost 2 DDs.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/8/2012 3:44:01 PM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		I like to keep my surface groups around 8 ships and my carrier groups around 11-12. Found I had the best luck with them.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/8/2012 6:22:47 PM   
Shark7


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Status: offline 		Size penalties aside, I have found that 4-8 ships in a surface combat TF will generally outperform a TF larger than that.

I have used SAGs with 1 Cruiser and 2-3 DDs very effectively, even more so than an SAG with 2 BBs in them.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/6/2021 1:17:33 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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Status: offline 		In my experience I have found that a surface combat task force usually around 10 ships the best. Though smaller ones can do well.
I did read a while back but you should not mix the gun ranges too much like for instance not mixing light cruisers with battleships because the task force will try and close when you maybe don't want it too. I have generally tried to stick to this rule. So the big guns in any task force usually have a similar range.
For carriers, I usually go for 15 if possible for the best Flak and ASW

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2021 5:39:56 AM   
Ian R

 

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2021 2:05:14 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Several discussions in AARs left conventional wisdom as recommending no more than 10ish for good surface combat fighting, although the official impacts are at 15 and 25 as stated. The 10 ship thing is anecdotal but seemed supported by the fact that ships in bigger TFs failed to engage often.

Even more important was TF composition. Matching speeds and, critically, main gun ranges for TF capital ships was demonstrably better per the collective wisdom, articulated best by Nemo's excellent posts on the matter.



I use an even dozen as my optimum target size for a SAG and 15 for my carrier TFs while they operate with two carriers in the early war period and hold to the 25 maximum after I start putting three or more carriers in each CAG in mid '43.

However, there are too few destroyers to go around in the early period so many SAGs operate with 6-8 ships.

There likely is no correct size, just what feels right and performs well for any given player.
Experience is the best determinant.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2021 3:39:49 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Old topic...and the answer depends.

Multiple small task forces can really perform well...under the right circumstances as can a fully loaded taskforce with 25 ships.

You have your goal, your likely opposition (both air and sea) to plan for, your stance (offensive, defensive) in addition the quality of your leaders, fuel and ammo and search capability to all plan for that makes no stock answer correct.


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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2021 4:12:00 PM   
Moltrey


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Status: offline 		Just remember... larger task forces are easier to find and track, so there is a tradeoff (as one would expect).
I imagine there is a "somewhat happy medium" in there... somewhere.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2021 4:16:59 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

larger task forces are easier to find and track, so there is a tradeoff (as one would expect).
I imagine there is a "somewhat happy medium" in there... somewhere.


Sometimes, that is what you desire!

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2021 4:33:45 PM   
btd64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

larger task forces are easier to find and track, so there is a tradeoff (as one would expect).
I imagine there is a "somewhat happy medium" in there... somewhere.


Sometimes, that is what you desire!



True....GP

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/7/2021 7:26:26 PM   
Nomad


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Status: offline 		And of course sometimes the size and composition of a TF depends on what you have available at that location. It is not always possible to create the perfect TF.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/8/2021 1:53:51 AM   
rustysi


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Status: offline 		And on, and on, and on....

But its still fun to talk about.

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/10/2021 7:07:10 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

And on, and on, and on....

But its still fun to talk about.


Lowpe is an expert at small TF night combat missions, especially, and gets a lot out of all ships. As he says, it depends, but it is fun to debate.

I'd add that low moonlight, heavy weather, favors multiple smaller TFs one fewer larger ones. Daylight, good visibility favors well composed TFs of medium size in an offensive roll. Defensively sometimes it's good to stack up to 15-20 ship to hope that your functional BBs/CAs don't end up without escorts when damaged are detached.

It's a lot of personal play style and how you fit with your opponent as well. Post surface battle air strikes are a huge factor and eat up detached and damaged ships in daylight. .

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/11/2021 3:48:00 AM   
Tanaka


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Status: offline 		More good info thanks guys! I'm done with 25 ship task forces too many collisions!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 8/11/2021 7:28:46 AM >

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RE: Surface Combat TF size? - 8/11/2021 9:53:30 AM   
Trugrit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

More good info thanks guys! I'm done with 25 ship task forces too many collisions!

You might rethink “Done” at some point.

And….I don’t want new players to get the Idea that a 25 ship surface combat TF is useless.

Veteran Players often use “combine and Split” tactics.
A 25 ship surface combat TF can split into two or more TF’s.

As lowpe and obvert pointed out it depends on the situation.




Attachment (1)

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